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303 points FigurativeVoid | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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PaulDavisThe1st ◴[] No.41842315[source]
> true, because it doesn't make sense to "know" a falsehoood

That's a problem right there. Maybe that made sense to the Greeks, but it definitely doesn't make any sense in the 21st century. "Knowing" falsehoods is something we broadly acknowledge that we all do.

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kragen ◴[] No.41843126[source]
No, I think many people use a definition of "know" that doesn't include "knowing" falsehoods. Possibly you and they have fundamentally beliefs about the nature of reality, or possibly you are just using different definitions for the same word.
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mannykannot ◴[] No.41844477[source]
I agree that it is not often helpful to to avoid the issue by redefining a term in a way not originally intended (though it may be justified if the original definition is predicated on an unjustifiable (and sometimes tacit) assumption.)

Furthermore, OP’s choice of putting “know” in quotes seems to suggest that author is not using the word as conventionally understood (though, of course, orthography is not an infallible guide to intent.)

IMHO, Gettier cases are useful only on that they raise the issue of what constitutes an acceptable justification for a belief to become knowledge.

Gettier clauses are specifically constructed to be about true beliefs, and so do not challenge the idea that facts are true. Instead, one option to resolve the paradox is to drop the justification requirement altogether, but that opens the question of what, if anything, we can know we know. At this point, I feel that I am just following Hume’s footsteps…

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kragen ◴[] No.41850911{3}[source]
I think making sense of the Gettier debate does depend on using a definition of "know" that isn't just a question of what state the "knower's" brain is in. Gettier's point is not that truth isn't necessary; it's that, generally when people say "know", they are referring not only to brain states and truth, but also something else, specifically, some kind of causal connection between the two. I don't think you can construct a definition of "know" by which Gettier cases aren't "knowing" to which truth is irrelevant.
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1. mannykannot ◴[] No.41860354{4}[source]
Gettier clauses can be readily understood as a response to the conventional starting point for epistemology: the position that having knowledge is a matter of having a justified belief in a true proposition (often abbreviated to JTB.) (This really only concerns propositional knowledge, as opposed to, for example, knowing how to ride a bicycle.)

To know something in this sense seems to require several things: firstly, that the relevant proposition is true, which is independent of one's state of mind (not everyone agrees, but that is another issue...) Secondly, it seems to require that one knows what the relevant proposition is, which is a state of mind. Thirdly, having a belief that it is true, which is also a state of mind.

If we left it at that, there's no clear way to find out which propositions are true, at least for those that are not clearly true a priori (and even then, 'clearly' is problematic except in trivial cases, but that is yet another issue...) Having a justification for our belief gives us confidence that what we believe to be true actually is (though it rarely gives us certainty.)

But what, then, is justification? If we take the truth of the proposition alone as its justification, we get stuck in an epistemic loop. I think you are right if you are suggesting that good justifications are often in the form of causal arguments, but by taking that position, we are casting justification as being something like knowledge: having a belief that an argument about causes (or anything else, for that matter) is sound, rather than a belief that a proposition states a fact - but having a justified belief in an argument involves knowing that its premises are correct...

It is beginning to look like tortoises all the way down (as in Lewis Carroll's "What the Tortoise Said to Achilles".)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Tortoise_Said_to_Achi...