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589 points atomic128 | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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atomic128 ◴[] No.41840791[source]
Reuters article, no paywall: https://www.reuters.com/technology/artificial-intelligence/g...

CNBC article, no paywall: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/10/14/google-inks-deal-with-nuclea...

No battery farm can protect a solar/wind grid from an arbitrarily extended period of bad weather. If you have battery backup sufficient for time T and the weather doesn't cooperate for time T+1, you're in trouble.

Even a day or two of battery backup eliminates the cost advantage of solar/wind. Battery backup postpones the "range anxiety deadline" but cannot remove it. Fundamentally, solar and wind are not baseload power solutions. They are intermittent and unreliable.

Nuclear fission is the only clean baseload power source that can be widely adopted (cf. hydro). After 70 years of working with fission reactors, we know how to build and operate them at 95%+ efficiency (https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/what-generation-capacity). Vogtle 3 and 4 have been operating at 100%.

Today there are 440 nuclear reactors operating in 32 countries.

Nuclear fission power plants are expensive to build but once built the plant can last 50 years (probably 80 years, maybe more). The unenriched uranium fuel is very cheap (https://www.cameco.com/invest/markets/uranium-price), perhaps 5% of the cost of running the plant.

This is in stark contrast to natural gas, where the plant is less expensive to build, but then fuel costs rapidly accumulate. The fossil fuel is the dominant cost of running the plant. And natural gas is a poor choice if greenhouse emissions matter.

Google is funding construction of 7 nuclear reactors. Microsoft is paying $100/MWh for 20 years to restart an 819 MW reactor at Three Mile Island. Sam Altman owns a stake in Oklo, a small modular reactor company. Bill Gates owns a stake in his TerraPower nuclear reactor company. Amazon recently purchased a "nuclear adjacent" data center from Talen Energy. Oracle announced that it is designing data centers with small modular nuclear reactors. As for Meta, see Yann LeCun's unambiguous comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41621097

In China, 5 reactors are being built every year. 11 more were recently announced. The United Arab Emirates (land of oil and sun) now gets 25% of its grid power from the Barakah nuclear power plant (four 1.4 GW reactors, a total of 5.6 GW).

Nuclear fission will play an important role in the future of grid energy, along with solar and wind. Many people (e.g., Germany) still fear it. Often these people are afraid of nuclear waste, despite it being extremely tiny and safely contained (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_cask_storage). Education will fix this.

Nuclear fission is safe, clean, secure, and reliable.

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ViewTrick1002 ◴[] No.41842046[source]
And recently found the be vastly more expensive than a renewable grid when looking at total system cost.

It needs to come down by 85% in cost to be equal to the renewable system.

Every dollar invested in nuclear today prolongs our reliance on fossil fuels. We get enormously more value of the money simply by building renewables.

> The study finds that investments in flexibility in the electricity supply are needed in both systems due to the constant production pattern of nuclear and the variability of renewable energy sources. However, the scenario with high nuclear implementation is 1.2 billion EUR more expensive annually compared to a scenario only based on renewables, with all systems completely balancing supply and demand across all energy sectors in every hour. For nuclear power to be cost competitive with renewables an investment cost of 1.55 MEUR/MW must be achieved, which is substantially below any cost projection for nuclear power.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626192...

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Moldoteck ◴[] No.41846480[source]
quite the opposite https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03605...
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ViewTrick1002 ◴[] No.41846944[source]
Yes, that shit study which models supplying the entire grid with one energy source and lithium storage through all weather conditions.

I would suggest reading the study I linked so you can see the difference in methodology when credible researches in the field tackle similar question.

The credible studies are focused on simulating the energy system and market with real world constraints. Which unsurprisingly works out to be way cheaper when not involving nuclear in the picture.

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1. Moldoteck ◴[] No.41846985{3}[source]
it models solar+wind+storage + even brings the 95% supply into discussion and it's still better for nuclear. I suggest you to understand that 4h storage is a totally unrealistic requirement and h2 production is a pipedream for foreseeable future
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2. ViewTrick1002 ◴[] No.41847067[source]
> I suggest you to understand that 4h storage is a totally unrealistic requirement

If California simply continues their current storage rollout they will have 10 hours of storage at peak demand and 20 hours of storage at average demand when the warranties for what they build today run out in 20 years.

This would coincide with any new nuclear power plant project starting today beginning commercial operations.

If Vogtle, Flamanville 3 and friends had delivered on their promises in the 2000s nuclear power might have been part of the solution. They did not do it, and thus nuclear power never became part of the solution.

https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/

> h2 production is a pipedream for foreseeable future

When we get to the final percent in the 2030s we can utilize akin to todays peaker plants financed on capacity markets [1] but zero carbon.

Peaker plants today already run too little to be economical on their own, essentially what in our current grids constitute seasonal storage and emergency reserves.

Simply update the terms for the capacity markets to require the fuel to be zero-carbon. It can be synfuels, biofuels or hydrogen. Whatever comes out the cheapest.

As we electrify transportation we can shift over the massive ethanol blending in gasoline in the US to be our seasonal buffer. [2]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_market#Capacity_ma...

[2]: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=27&t=10

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3. Moldoteck ◴[] No.41847117[source]
Not so sure about California https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/US-CAL-CISO especially considering at some point peaker/overcapacity/storage would need huge subsidies to be built, especially considering California wants to shut down it's nuclear. Vogtle unit 4 was cheaper and faster than unit 3, meaning there is positive learning curve.