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352 points keithly | 47 comments | | HN request time: 0.93s | source | bottom
1. kart23 ◴[] No.41842758[source]
Isn't flossing not supported by science also, but all the news articles said you should keep flossing?
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2. rootusrootus ◴[] No.41842896[source]
Yes, flossing cannot be proven to help. But it cannot be proven to hurt, either, so current recommendations are to do it anyway.
replies(7): >>41842911 #>>41843015 #>>41843048 #>>41843163 #>>41843309 #>>41844230 #>>41845628 #
3. krackers ◴[] No.41842911[source]
>cannot be proven to hurt

Inserting floss between your teeth pushes them slightly apart. I wonder if that could have any negatives?

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4. washadjeffmad ◴[] No.41842925[source]
That's one of those statements, like a natural empiricist saying they don't believe in the big bang, that people tend to latch onto and run with without stopping to evaluate.

Flossing daily isn't necessary if you're an adequate manual brusher. Relatively few people are adequate manual brushers.

Buy a good electric toothbrush, floss periodically.

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5. bsmith ◴[] No.41842957{3}[source]
Considering orthodontic treatments, no. I imagine you could damage the connective tissues under the gums though.
6. camgunz ◴[] No.41843015[source]
You can say the exact same thing about eating a blank piece of paper twice a day. Pascal's wager is no way to live life.
7. Barrin92 ◴[] No.41843048[source]
>But it cannot be proven to hurt, either, so current recommendations are to do it anyway.

That's not a meaningful standard for any health intervention. If I'd apply everything to my body that wasn't proven to hurt I'd spend a hundred bucks every morning and two hours in the bathroom. If "it doesn't hurt" was sufficient basis for a recommendation our doctors would tell us to swallow homeopathic medicine every morning.

It seems pretty obvious that anything you apply has to have at least some measurable impact, otherwise you're basically in the same category as the supplement industry.

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8. lesuorac ◴[] No.41843072[source]
Perhaps you'll find it useful that a double-blind study found no improvement in outcome from use of a parachute when jumping out of a helicopter.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/

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9. flossmaster ◴[] No.41843073[source]
My most recent trip to the dentist include a brief recommendation to floss, but they weren't really pushing it like they used to.
10. hervature ◴[] No.41843112[source]
That's not at all what that "study" says. It is a critique (in poor taste if you ask me) that everything does not require a double-blind study.
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11. kart23 ◴[] No.41843163[source]
I still floss because I think its gross and I have bad gaps in some of my teeth, but I think flossing can also cause harms, for example some floss has PFAS in it.

https://www.consumerreports.org/toxic-chemicals-substances/d...

12. criddell ◴[] No.41843193[source]
If flossing lowers the risk of certain types of gum disease and certain types of gum disease are associated with Alzheimer’s, then maybe flossing is (indirectly) good for your brain.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/good-oral-healt...

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13. Supermancho ◴[] No.41843309[source]
> Yes, flossing cannot be proven to help.

It's demonstrable that something like a bean skin, lodged in your teeth, will erode the teeth touching it.

14. alliao ◴[] No.41843714[source]
the whole Alzheimers field recently got turned upside down... not sure how to assess them anymore... https://www.science.org/content/article/research-misconduct-...
replies(1): >>41845441 #
15. pushupentry1219 ◴[] No.41843771[source]
Completely anecdotal but my gums flare up and just feel disgusting when I don't floss for too long.

I don't do the dentist recommended 2/week but if I stop flossing for over a month I notice significant decrease in my gum health. It becomes excruciatingly painful to brush and this stage and my mouth is full of blood afterwards.

So I'm sticking to flossing pretty often now.

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16. caseyy ◴[] No.41843835[source]
It's one of those things which people endlessly argue about, but once one flosses once or twice, the rotting bits of food in between their teeth become very unappealing to them.
17. underbiding ◴[] No.41843948[source]
the studies are about outcomes of parachute use writ-large ("gravitational challenges"), not just helicopters.

Only reason I'm being pedantic here is because if the study was in-fact looking at parachutes from helicopters, it could actually be plausible that parachutes had no improvements when used with helicopters. Most, if not all pilots, don't wear parachutes because there's not enough time to jump out of a crashing helicopter to deploy one and the blades would probably hit you anyway (unlike a plane which you could glide for some time, helicopters are notoriously more likely to fall straight like a brick)

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18. mlyle ◴[] No.41844155[source]
Your comment is misled.

This is a systemic review. A RCT would absolutely find a difference. The whole point of this satire is to point out that there's not always studies on what you want to know. "No randomised controlled trials of parachute use have been undertaken"

Flossing has absolutely been studied. Professional flossing seems effective at combating gum disease. Telling people to floss doesn't seem to be. It's unclear why (is it just compliance effects? are people educated on how to floss still ineffective? etc.)

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19. mlyle ◴[] No.41844172{3}[source]
> It is a critique (in poor taste if you ask me) that everything does not require a double-blind study.

I think the real point is that systemic reviews often will have a pretty tilted set of included studies, because they are influenced by what things researchers choose to study.

Indeed, you probably couldn't publish a study saying that parachutes work; it's not an interesting enough finding for publication. So the only stuff you'll find, in many cases, are studies that buck the prevailing wisdom.

20. ◴[] No.41844230[source]
21. lesuorac ◴[] No.41844584{3}[source]
Ah, you're right I grabbed the wrong paper. I presume the other commenter (hervature ) also knew what paper I meant.

But yes, the item you want studied might not have been studied. ("However, the trial was only able to enroll participants on small stationary aircraft on the ground, suggesting cautious extrapolation to high altitude jumps.")

https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094

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22. askvictor ◴[] No.41844751[source]
That story is because no-one had thought to study it so there was no scientific evidence that it made any difference. Not that a study had found it made no difference.
23. mlyle ◴[] No.41845192{4}[source]
OK. So another low effort comment on a serious subthread.
24. m463 ◴[] No.41845346[source]
I thought it was gum disease and heart disease?
25. moi2388 ◴[] No.41845441{3}[source]
If you follow news in France, it’s been shown and been shown in court cases that certain pesticides, commonly used in wine farming, cause Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s.

They have much higher rates of these diseases, and recently in a court case the death of a farmers daughter has been shown to be caused by these pesticides.

replies(1): >>41847034 #
26. bdjsiqoocwk ◴[] No.41845628[source]
Cannot be proven to help if you don't mind your organic matter decomposing in your mouth.
replies(1): >>41849368 #
27. krageon ◴[] No.41846373[source]
It's like when I researched whether an electric toothbrush is better: All the studies say it's not, assuming you're a good brusher. You're probably not. For bad brushers and people that can't manipulate the toothbrush properly for whatever reason, an electric toothbrush gets them to the same performance.
28. agurk ◴[] No.41846587{3}[source]
Interestingly helicopters don't fall out of the sky when they lose power. Air moving over the rotorblades causes lift, as they are after all wings. During normal flight the blades are turned by the engine generating lift in the expected way. If you are already above the ground and start descending, the airflow over the blades as you descend will cause them to rotate and generate lift. This is known as autorotation[0], and allows control over the unpowered descending craft.

It is a normal procedure to be able to safely land this way when power has been lost, and in some ways is safer than a gliding fixed wing aircraft as you don't need a runway to land on.

Of course catastrophic failure is possible in a helicopter where the rotorblades can't turn, and then autorotation won't work. But then if a wing falls off a fixed-wing aircraft, they generally can't be controlled (interesting exceptions do exist like with the Israeli F15[1]).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Negev_mid-air_collision

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29. initplus ◴[] No.41847034{4}[source]
Court isn't the place for scientific inquiry into these issues. It's just not setup for it. French courts have also found in favor of "electrosensitivity" issues.
30. meowster ◴[] No.41847314[source]
That does not sound normal.
replies(1): >>41848841 #
31. ◴[] No.41847338{4}[source]
32. xyst ◴[] No.41848148[source]
> floss periodically

I used to do this periodically because I hated doing it. But as a result, plaque would build up. Especially on the front bottom incisors.

Eventually added it to my daily routine after the nth time being told to floss daily. And now my dental cleanings are more like spot checks.

I suppose it’s anecdotal and unique to everyone though. Something about mouth flora.

replies(1): >>41883273 #
33. mikedelfino ◴[] No.41848406{3}[source]
I'm inclined to believe that preventing food particles from rotting between my teeth is a measurable impact in itself, regardless of whether it directly impacts my health.
replies(1): >>41849397 #
34. marcosdumay ◴[] No.41848505{3}[source]
IMO, it's a critique on the "no study shows it exists, therefore it doesn't exist" attitude.

If you manage to do double-blind studies for every single piece of knowledge out there, kudos for you. There's nothing bad in this.

Anyway, it's on topic for several sidelines people are raising. But not on topic for the main article.

35. zupa-hu ◴[] No.41848691[source]
My partner is an orthodontist. (That’s a specialization within dentistry.) I’m a software engineer btw.

The saying goes that you only need to floss the teeth you want to keep.

If you think about it, a toothbrush will only clean 3 sides of a tooth. Top, outer side, inner side. Not the 2 sides facing neighbour teeth.

How on earth is it very important to clean those 3 sides but not the remaining 2? That just doesn’t make sense. If you think flossing is not useful, to be coherent, you must believe toothbrushing is not useful.

On the flip side, learn how to do flossing right to not hurt your gums. The floss must follow the shape of the tooth, and not be straight. (Ie. move along a U path.) Flossing in a straight line does more harm then good.

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36. ◴[] No.41848719[source]
37. ◴[] No.41848841{3}[source]
38. meowster ◴[] No.41848878[source]
You might be going at it too hard. Please see a dentist or get a second opinion from another dentist.

According to my dentist, you can damage your gums by brushing them too hard. I don't floss so he didn't address that, but in both methods, force is being applied to delicate tissue.

The point of brushing and flossing is to remove food particles. You don't have to abuse your teeth or gums to do that.

replies(1): >>41853971 #
39. rootusrootus ◴[] No.41849368{3}[source]
Presumably you brush your teeth. The studies on floss usage do not start with a baseline of doing nothing at all.
40. rootusrootus ◴[] No.41849397{4}[source]
Your assumption is that the floss is removing something that brushing does not. Ask your dentist why you should floss and the answer is not removing occasional lodged pieces of food from between your teeth, but cleaning under the gum line. There is no evidence to suggest it works that way, this is what the long term studies have determined.
replies(1): >>41850496 #
41. skybrian ◴[] No.41850301[source]
Anecdotally, my gums used to bleed fairly easily (like during a dental cleaning) and they don’t anymore since flossing somewhat more regularly. So I think you can judge this by how dental cleanings go.
42. mikedelfino ◴[] No.41850496{5}[source]
So by that rationale, after a thorough brush, flossing would never remove anything?
replies(1): >>41852612 #
43. svet_0 ◴[] No.41852612{6}[source]
plaque and food under gum line
44. MetaWhirledPeas ◴[] No.41853264[source]
> Flossing daily isn't necessary if you're an adequate manual brusher.

Anecdote. I went my whole life not-flossing, having occasional procedures until every molar had work done to it. I started flossing daily and the need for procedures stopped.

45. pushupentry1219 ◴[] No.41853971{3}[source]
I have been told by him not to brush too hard. And i dont brush hard. But the issue is not related to my brushing. What I meant with the blood was;

First I don't floss for a month. Then what looks like gingivitis shows up. And when I brush (normally -- not hard) after this, the sites that have the gingivitis bleed and are extremely painful.

If I don't floss my dentist notices immediately and tells me to floss more often because there's food and shit in there, hence why I tend to floss.

46. magnetowasright ◴[] No.41867280{4}[source]
The Jesus nut[0] failing is one such catastrophic failure; the rotor would separate. I just think it's neat that it has a Wikipedia page.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_nut

47. IIsi50MHz ◴[] No.41883273{3}[source]
But…flossy daily is literally flossing periodically. Or did you mean you used to do an unspecified longer period? Or aperiodically?