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xanderlewis ◴[] No.40214349[source]
> Stripped of anything else, neural networks are compositions of differentiable primitives

I’m a sucker for statements like this. It almost feels philosophical, and makes the whole subject so much more comprehensible in only a single sentence.

I think François Chollet says something similar in his book on deep learning: one shouldn’t fall into the trap of anthropomorphising and mysticising models based on the ‘neural’ name; deep learning is simply the application of sequences of operations that are nonlinear (and hence capable of encoding arbitrary complexity) but nonetheless differentiable and so efficiently optimisable.

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phkahler ◴[] No.40215628[source]
>> one shouldn’t fall into the trap of anthropomorphising and mysticising models based on the ‘neural’ name

And yet, artificial neural networks ARE an approximation of how biological neurons work. It is worth noting that they came out of neurobiology and not some math department - well at least in the forward direction, I'm not sure who came up with the training algorithms (probably the math folks). Should they be considered mystical? No. I would also posit that biological neurons are more efficient and probably have better learning algorithms than artificial ones today.

I'm confused as to why some people seem to shun the biological equivalence of these things. In a recent thread here I learned that physical synaptic weights (in our brains) are at least partly stored in DNA or its methylation. If that isn't fascinating I'm not sure what is. Or is it more along the lines of intelligence can be reduced to a large number of simple things, and biology has given us an interesting physical implementation?

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xanderlewis ◴[] No.40216482[source]
As the commenter below mentions, the biological version of a neuron (i.e. a neuron) is much more complicated than the neural network version. The neural network version is essentially just a weighted sum, with an extra layer of shaping applied afterwards to make it nonlinear. As far as I know, we still don’t understand all of the complexity about how biological neurons work. Even skimming the Wikipedia page for ‘neuron’ will give you some idea.

The original idea of approximating something like a neuron using a weighted sum (which is a fairly obvious idea, given the initial discovery that neurons become ‘activated’ and they do so in proportion to how much the neurons they are connected to are) did come from thinking about biological brains, but the mathematical building blocks are incredibly simple and are hundreds of years old, if not thousands.

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naasking ◴[] No.40216693[source]
> the biological version of a neuron (i.e. a neuron) is much more complicated than the neural network version

This is a difference of degree not of kind, because neural networks are Turning complete. Whatever additional complexity the neuron has can itself be modelled as a neural network.

Edit: meaning, that if the greater complexity of a biological neuron is relevant to its information processing component, then that just increases the number of artificial neural network neurons needed to describe it, it does not need any computation of a different kind.

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srean ◴[] No.40221336[source]
> This is a difference of degree not of kind

Nope.

Neurons in our brain operate fundamentally differently. They work by transient spikes and information is carried not by the intensity of the spike voltage, but by the frequency of spiking. This is a fundamentally different phenomenon than ANNs where the output (voltage) is a squash transformed aggregated input values (voltages).

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phkahler ◴[] No.40229149[source]
>> Neurons in our brain operate fundamentally differently. They work by transient spikes and information is carried not by the intensity of the spike voltage, but by the frequency of spiking.

I thought they worked like accumulators where the spike "energy" accumulates until the output "fires". If that's the case then the artificial NNs are still an approximation of that process. I agree that this is a significant difference, but the mathematical version is still a rough approximation inspired by the biological one.

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1. srean ◴[] No.40246497{3}[source]
Sandpile mathematics, something that is studied by computer scientists and mathematicians, would be an approximation. Its not so much the level of the spike that matters but how often they spike is what conveys the signal. The temporal behavior is supremely important. It used to be believed that the rate is all that matters, but now, no longer.

There are ANN models that model these spike trains (that's what these 'avalanches' are called), these do work similar to real neurons, but they are not part of the deep neural network popularity [0,1]. Besides, backpropagation is not what goes on in the brain, its known to be biologically infeasible.

So all in all the traditional ANNs are nothing like real neural networks. That's ok, aeroplanes do not fly like birds, but they do still 'fly'.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiking_neural_network

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9313413/