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1045 points mfiguiere | 8 comments | | HN request time: 0.674s | source | bottom
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wheybags ◴[] No.39345186[source]
Cannot understand why AMD would stop funding this. It seems like this should have a whole team allocated to it.
replies(1): >>39345254 #
otoburb ◴[] No.39345254[source]
They would always be at the mercy of NVIDIA's API. Without knowing the inner workings, perhaps a major concern with this approach is the need to implement on NVIDIA's schedule instead of AMD's which is a very reactive stance.

This approach actually would make sense if AMD felt, like most of us perhaps, that the NVIDIA ecosystem is too entrenched, but perhaps they made the decision recently to discontinue funding because they (now?) feel otherwise.

replies(2): >>39345418 #>>39347490 #
blagie ◴[] No.39345418[source]
They've been at mercy of Intel x86 APIs for a long time. Didn't kill them.

What happens here is that the original vendor loses control of the API once there are multiple implementations. That's the best possible outcome for AMD.

In either case, they have a limited window to be adopted, and that's more important. The abstraction layer here helps too. AMD code is !@#$%. If this were adopted, it makes it easier to fix things underneath. All that is a lot more important than a dream of disrupting CUDA.

replies(3): >>39345550 #>>39345891 #>>39346080 #
1. rubatuga ◴[] No.39345550[source]
x86 is not the same, the courts forced the release of x86 architecture to AMD during an antitrust lawsuit
replies(2): >>39345691 #>>39345787 #
2. anon291 ◴[] No.39345691[source]
You don't think the courts would force the opening of CUDA? Didn't a court already rule that API cannot be patented. I believe it was a Google case. As long as no implementation was stolen, the API itself is not able to be copyrighted.

Here it is: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/04/how-the-supreme-...

replies(2): >>39345827 #>>39346343 #
3. hardware2win ◴[] No.39345787[source]
You think x86 would be changed in such a way that it'd break and?

Because what else?

If so, then i think that this is crazy because software is harder to change than hardware

4. Symmetry ◴[] No.39345827[source]
Regardless of the legal status of APIs, this Phoronix article is about AMD providing a replacement ABI and I wouldn't assume the legal issues are necessarily the same. But because this is a case where AMD is following a software target there's the possibility, if AMD starts to succeed, that NVidia might change their ABI in ways that deliberatly hurt AMD's compatibility efforts in ways that would be much more difficult for APIs or hardware. That's, presumably, why AMD is going forward with their API emulation effort instead.
replies(1): >>39345855 #
5. anon291 ◴[] No.39345855{3}[source]
If you read the article, it's about Google's re-implementation of the Java API and runtime. Thus, yes, Google was providing both API and ABI compatibility.
replies(1): >>39346214 #
6. Symmetry ◴[] No.39346214{4}[source]
I read the article when it came out and re-scimmed it just now. My understanding at the time and still was that the legal case revolved around the API and the exhibits entered into evidence I saw were all Java function names with their arguments and things of that sort. And I'm given to understand that the Dalvik Java implementation Google was using with Android was register based rather than than the stack based standard Java, which sounds to me like it would make actual binary compatibility impossible.
7. jcranmer ◴[] No.39346343[source]
> Didn't a court already rule that API cannot be patented. I believe it was a Google case. As long as no implementation was stolen, the API itself is not able to be copyrighted.

That is... not accurate in the slightest.

Oracle v Google was not about patentability. Software patentability is its own separate minefield, since anyone who looks at the general tenor of SCOTUS cases on the issue should be able to figure out that SCOTUS is at best highly skeptical of software patents, even if it hasn't made any direct ruling on the topic. (Mostly this is a matter of them being able to tell what they don't like but not what they do like, I think). But I've had a patent attorney straight-out tell me that in absence of better guidance, they're just pretending the most recent relevant ruling (which held that X-on-a-computer isn't patentable) doesn't exist. In any case, a patent on software APIs (as opposed to software as a whole) would very clearly fall under the "what are you on, this isn't patentable" category of patentability.

The case was about the copyrightability of software APIs. Except if you read the decision itself, SCOTUS doesn't actually answer the question [1]. Instead, it focuses on whether or not Google's use of the Java APIs were fair use. Fair use is a dangerous thing to rely on for legal precedent, since there's no "automatic" fair use category, but instead a balancing test ostensibly of four factors but practically of one factor: does it hurt the original copyright owner's profits [2].

There's an older decision which held that the "structure, sequence, and organization" of code is copyrightable independent of the larger work of software, which is generally interpreted as saying that software APIs are copyrightable. At the same time, however, it's widespread practice in the industry to assume that "clean room" development of an API doesn't violate any copyright. The SCOTUS decision in Google v Oracle was widely interpreted as endorsing this interpretation of the law.

[1] There's a sentence or two that suggests to me there was previously a section on copyrightability that had been ripped out of the opinion.

[2] See also the more recent Andy Warhol SCOTUS decision which, I kid you not, says that you have to analyze this to figure out whether or not a use is "transformative". Which kind of implicitly overturns Google v Oracle if you think about it, but is unlikely to in practice.

replies(1): >>39346610 #
8. monocasa ◴[] No.39346610{3}[source]
To be fair, there were patent claims in Oracle vs. Google too. That's why the appeals went through the CAFC rather than the 9th circuit. Those claims were simply thrown out pretty early. Whether that says something about more generally or was simply a set of weak claims intended for venue shopping is a legitimate discussion to be had though.