←back to thread

517 points xbar | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
ajb ◴[] No.39146163[source]
The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...

and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...

Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have much effect since there are 17 other judges). But interestingly Judge Barak ruled against Israel in the case of two measures, enforcement against Incitement and ensuring humanitarian aid.

I believe it's also available in French, for those more familiar with that language.

replies(7): >>39146237 #>>39146925 #>>39147067 #>>39148425 #>>39148514 #>>39150104 #>>39150978 #
throwaway421967 ◴[] No.39150104[source]
Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts.

- Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces).

- Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive.

- 766 / 1200 = 63.8%

- 63.8% and 66% are indeed close numbers, don't see why would it be flagged.

Of course, the numbers claimed by other NGOs / UN make it worse. But Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim.

[1] - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...

replies(4): >>39151327 #>>39151574 #>>39151778 #>>39154637 #
Qem ◴[] No.39151574[source]
Regarding the people that died on October 7, one important detail is evidence surfaced it appears a sizeable fraction was killed due to Israeli military attacking militants and hostages without distinction, to avoid capture, following the so called Hannibal directive:

https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hann...

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaga...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

replies(4): >>39151898 #>>39152288 #>>39153649 #>>39154033 #
edanm ◴[] No.39153649[source]
As far as has been credibly reported, it wasn't a "sizeable fraction", it was a very small number. There's only one incident I know of that is verified.

I'm sure more will surface - such is war. Therefore I want to make it very clear - it is not an important detail, despite you calling it such. Hamas are the ones that attacked - if in the process of trying to stop these attacks, the IDF inadvertantly killed Israeli civilians, that is tragic - but is completely the fault of Hamas. This is true both legally and morally.

replies(2): >>39154076 #>>39155765 #
SomeoneFromCA ◴[] No.39154076[source]
It is absolutely not "true both legally and morally." It all depends on scale and purpose of the operation. If israeli military acted with disregard to the lives of non combatants, that would account to war crimes, against their own population. They have history of war crimes against their own forces, called Hannibal doctrine, so I won't surprised if they have same directives against civilians.
replies(1): >>39160091 #
edanm ◴[] No.39160091{3}[source]
> It is absolutely not "true both legally and morally." It all depends on scale and purpose of the operation.

Well I wasn't making a general statement - I was talking in this specific case.

Let's give an analogy - if a bunch of bank robbers have taken hostages and are threatening to kill them, and if the police is reasonably certain there is no way of actually getting them out - the police is morally justified in sending in SWAT to try and rescue as many hostages as possible. Even if they know that many hostages will die.

The moral fault is with the bank robbers, not the police.

> If [I]sraeli military acted with disregard to the lives of non combatants, that would account to war crimes, against their own population.

I think that's a totally valid internal matter for debate within Israel. Should this kind of doctrine be the rule? Is it appropriate to attempt to stop militants by any means necessary, including possibly at the cost of your own population? This is in the same vein as "we don't negotiate with terrorists", a principled position that theoretically cuts down on terror, but that has brutal immediate ramaficiations in specific cases.

That all said, I don't think this doctrine amounts to war crimes (I'm not sure how it possibly could amount to war crimes). And I think it's an internal matter for debate inside the country, but don't really see how it matters to anyone else.

In fact, it kind of proves the opposite of what many people think - that the IDF is specifically trying to kill Gazan civilians. I'm often asked "what would the IDF do if the innocent civilians around a Hamas militant were Jews, not Palestinians, would you still bomb them even though it might cause collateral damage?". And while I think that question has a lot of answers, I think the "Hannibal directive", if implemented on October 7th (as appears likely), is actually proof that the IDF acts consistently, if terribly brutally - civilians are sometimes collateral damage, even if they're Israelis.

replies(2): >>39161327 #>>39164136 #
1. jakupovic ◴[] No.39164136{4}[source]
Wow