ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

ISIS-K just carried out the worst terrorist attack in Iran (and it was primarily Iran's Q Solemani who dismantled ISIS; later killed by the US Army). Taliban rules Afghanistan again.

> What would you have Israel do, that you think would result in it not getting continually attacked by Hamas?

Negotiate, like they did with PLO before?

> withdrew its own citizens at gunpoint

Yeah, cause settlements are a clear breach of International Law. It was no charity.

> that's when Hamas took power...

Democratically elected, then subsequently undermined and later blockaded.

IDK what your point is with the Taliban, since they're a different group in a different country that isn't allied with ISIS. (And are unrelated to Israel and Gaza.)

Negotiate, like they did with the PLO before?

The PLO was willing to negotiate and Hamas is not. Hamas has repeatedly said they are not willing to agree to a permanent peace deal with Israel, and have said that they intend to carry out these attacks repeatedly until Israel is destroyed. In this situation, not a hypothetical one where Hamas wants peace, what exactly do you think Israel can do to prevent being attacked?

Democratically elected...

They won the legislative elections but not the prime ministership and subsequently started a massive civil war with the rest of the PA, which ended up in the PA maintaining control of the West Bank and Hamas controlling Gaza. Which is why Israel and Gaza have gone to war many times, but Israel and Ramallah have not — Israel and the PA mutually recognize each other, albeit with a fair amount of mutual enmity.

Yeah and who defeated them in Syria? There were two coalitions. French/US led and Syria/Iran led.

> The PLO was willing to negotiate and Hamas is not.

In 2014, in a meeting in the UAE post war, Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders. Then in 2017, ratified their charter again to make that point clear. In 2021, Hamas offered to join the PLO and conduct elections, which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote.

> subsequently started a massive civil war

US and Israel encouraged a coup by Fatah by arming and training the Presidential Guard in opposition to Hamas.

> Israel and Ramallah have not

Israel has razed Jenin, Tulkarm, and Nablus just this past month with over 50+ dead.

> Israel and the PA mutually recognize each other

PA is a puppet with bare minimum control over economy, trade, and security of its own people.

In 2014, in a meeting in the UAE post war, Hamas encouraged PLO to reach a political arrangement with Israel on 67 borders. Then in 2017, ratified their charter again to make that point clear. In 2021, Hamas offered to join the PLO and conduct elections, which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote.

None of these things are Hamas willing to make a permanent peace deal with Israel, which they have repeatedly stated they are not willing to do. After being frustrated by your off-topic or entirely inaccurate responses, I realized I remembered your username, and you have previously tried to claim to me that Hamas was willing to make peace deals and continually failed to back up your claims, along with similar unsourced claims and irrelevant debate points as I'm noticing in this back-and-forth. I am not really interested in having this "discussion" again!

Just as then, it is still the case that Abbas cancelled the elections, not Israel, even according to Hamas. I cited Hamas's own public statements, Wikipedia, etc and you are still making this same unsourced assertion that somehow Israel did it. But that's not even relevant! Hamas is very clear that they do not want a permanent peace deal with Israel!

By the way, the "PLO" stopped existing a long time before 2014. It's the PA now.

Israel has razed Jenin...

No, it didn't "raze" Jenin or any other city in the West Bank in "the past month," nor has it razed any city in the West Bank since the end of the Second Intifadah other than its own settlements. It fought a small group of Hamas-aligned terrorists with minimal casualties, agreed upon with the PA.

PA is a puppet with bare minimum control over economy, trade, and security of its own people

The PA is just the reformed PLO, that you were just saying should supposedly be emulated by Israel and Hamas. And objectively it is doing far better on literally all of those axes — economy, trade, and security — for its own people than Hamas.

Anyway, once again I point out: you are unable to say what Israel can actually do to prevent Hamas from repeatedly attacking it, given that Hamas does not want a permanent peace deal with Israel.

And then to continue the war from these borders. Duh.

> ratified their charter again to make that point clear.

The one which opposes recognition of Israel and promises to continue the war?

>which almost happened only for Israel to not let East Jerusalem residents vote.

This isn't true at all. Israeli opposes PA polling stations there. There are other ways to vote (like having the stations inside the EU consulates, or by mail). Which they already used in 2006, so PA is actually fine with this. It's that Abbas will lose to Hamas and everyone knows it, so he needs an lie that uninformed people would swallow.

>Israel has razed Jenin, Tulkarm, and Nablus

These cities aren't razed by any normal definition of 'razed'. Some people wanted to start another front and got crushed.

And their 2017 charter didn't say they were willing to make peace with Israel; in fact it only stated that it was justified to continue fighting Israel as it claims it's an occupying power. Hamas views all of Israel to be "occupied," not just 1967 borders, so that is a call for permanent war. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter

Hamas offered to join the PLO

No they didn't. Why do you keep claiming that? They ran against Fatah in 2021: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative...

And once again, the PLO doesn't exist.

Running in PA elections doesn't mean anything about their "peace" plans; they ran in 2006 and certainly had no peace plans then either: they had a charter that literally called for the genocide of the Jews (not Israelis! Not "Zionists." Jews).

Brooklyn doesn't get to decide that

I am not from Brooklyn, nor is any government involved here based in Brooklyn, so I can only assume you're being rabidly antisemitic here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter (ctrl+f peace)

> No they didn't. Why do you keep claiming that? They ran against Fatah in 2021

Running against Fatah does not mean they can't join the PLO, which is an umbrella organization for establishing the Palestinian State (made up of several rival political factions): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organizat...

> Brooklyn

You said Palestinians in the West Bank were objectively "far better", which is completely disregarding their plight against anti-Arab far-right Kahanists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane originally from Brooklyn) that control those lands.

> so I can only assume you're being rabidly antisemitic here

Rabidly? There we go. https://mondoweiss.net/2023/09/jewish-settlers-stole-my-hous... Nothing about the point being made, just a lot of smear.

Not a wise move.

> opposes recognition... promises war

I think you're confusing Likud's charter with Hamas'?

> uninformed people would swallow

Some say Egypt, Jordan, and Israel equally sabotaged the elections: https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509

> Some people wanted to start another front and got crushed

Truly crushed, or rather collective punishment / war crimes were the words you were looking for? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/01/israel-opt-je...

Good luck; not going to keep responding to you.

Edit: I see you have now stealth-edited your comment and are pretending that "Brooklyn doesn't get to decide that" as a response to me saying that the PA is doing better economically and in terms of the security of its people, is supposedly referencing Kahanists. I am not a Kahanist, and am not from Brooklyn, and this is literally the first time you've brought up Kahanists in this discussion (and no, Kahanists do not control the PA, or Ramallah, or Jenin, or whatever), so nice try but not especially convincing.

Care to divulge more? Seems like you're holding it in.

The entire article is about how nobody buys Abbas' excuses (the other link is similarly not relevant to the discussion).

You read it?

Egypt & Jordan:

  The heads of the Egyptian and Jordanian intelligence services, Abbas Kamel and Ahmad Hosni, visited the headquarters of the Palestinian Authority to meet with Abbas in mid-January. The two officials hoped to dissuade Abbas from proceeding to elections...

  Meanwhile, Israel strongly opposes any potential Hamas victory in Palestinian elections. In March, the Israeli government dispatched Nadav Argaman, head of the Shin Bet security service, to meet Abbas in his headquarters in Ramallah. Seeing data predicting a huge victory for Hamas and resounding loss for Fatah, Israel made a final effort to persuade Abbas to backtrack on the election move.

  For almost a year, Jenin refugee camp has been at the centre of Israel's escalating military crackdown... its residents continue to be subjected to relentless military raids which amount to collective punishment.  

  Israel continues to enjoy total impunity for the system of apartheid it imposes on Palestinians – a system which is partly maintained through violations like unlawful killings.

Abbas declared he would postpone elections on the basis of Israel’s refusal to allow them to be held in East Jerusalem. Palestinians overwhelmingly denounced Abbas’ decision. Voters argue other options for timely elections — without a full postponement — exist, and the postponement is merely an excuse to extend Abbas’ hold on power.

Furthermore, Israel declared that it never notified the Palestinian Authority of its refusal to hold elections in Jerusalem. The European Union, the mediator for this election dispute, also rejected Abbas’ postponement rationale on the same basis. On the procedural level, representatives of the Palestinian Central Elections Committee were reportedly aware of alternative election sites in East Jerusalem. The options are said to have included polling stations in United Nations facilities or European embassies in Jerusalem or facilitating electronic voting for Jerusalemite voters. But despite the array of options to encourage timely elections, the Palestinian Authority — under Abbas’ leadership — rejected all offers.

As we can see, this has nothing to do with E.Jerusalem voting, and a lot with Abbas - and everyone else - not wanting Hamas to win.

The PA refuses to hold new elections in the West Bank, because they know if they do, Hamas will very likely win. The US makes some noises every now and again about demanding the PA to hold new elections, but it is questionable if they really mean it, because they also know what the outcome of any fair election is likely to be, and it is not an outcome they would welcome.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palesti...

The last negotiations between thr PA and Israel were broken off by Israel because the the PA and Hamas both agreed that Hamas should be involved.

And then Israel specifically targeted and assassinated Hamas leaders that were leading the internal support for negotiations.

> Which is why Israel and Gaza have gone to war many times, but Israel and Ramallah have not

This is false; Israel is waging a significant campaign in the West Bank now as well as Gaza, and has essentially every time they have engaged in active combat in Gaza.

It’s not “against Ramallah" in the same way as it is “against Gaza” because Gaza is essentially a single administrative zone where, when Israel is “withdrawn”, is continguous and able to be centrally administered. The West Bank has parts administered dirextly by Israel, while the parts nominally administered by the PA are divided into 79 tiny noncontiguous areas separated by Israeli-administered areas. The PA innthe West Bank is sructurally impotent, but that doesn't stop Israel from going to war against the Palestinians there as well as in Gaza.

The last negotiations between thr PA and Israel were broken off by Israel because the the PA and Hamas both agreed that Hamas should be involved.

And then Israel specifically targeted and assassinated Hamas leaders that were leading the internal support for negotiations.

> Which is why Israel and Gaza have gone to war many times, but Israel and Ramallah have not

This is false; Israel is waging a significant campaign in the West Bank now as well as Gaza, and has essentially every time they have engaged in active combat in Gaza.

It’s not “against Ramallah" in the same way as it is “against Gaza” because Gaza is essentially a single administrative zone where, when Israel is “withdrawn”, is continguous and able to be centrally administered, and can effectively be controlled by someone during that time. The West Bank has parts administered directly by Israel, while the parts nominally administered by the PA are divided into 79 tiny noncontiguous areas separated by Israeli-administered areas. The PA innthe West Bank is sructurally impotent, but that doesn't stop Israel from going to war against the Palestinians there as well as in Gaza.

Israel is not launching airstrikes or displacing millions or doing anything remotely similar in the West Bank. There is targeted fighting as there often is with tens of Hamas-aligned militants dead. Every time there has been a major war in Gaza for like the past 20 years there has been nothing similar happening in the West Bank, and that's because Hamas does not control the West Bank and Israel is fighting Hamas. Ramallah does not look like Mosul right now and it hasn't in any of these repeated conflicts with Hamas, and Gaza has and does.

The last negotiations between the PA and Israel were broken off by Israel because the the PA and Hamas both agreed that Hamas should be involved.

No, Hamas never agreed to be part of peace negotiations. Israel broke off talks when Fatah and Hamas talked about merging governments in 2014 — not Hamas agreeing to be part of peace talks, which they never have — while the Hamas charter still included explicit calls for genocide of the Jews. Hamas has never stated that they are willing to make a permanent peace deal with Israel, and if they had, I would love to see one of you provide a source from Hamas saying that they are willing to make a permanent peace deal: I've been very willing to provide sources for Hamas official's frequent calls for the total destruction of Israel, e.g. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-says-group-aims...