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voisin ◴[] No.39143281[source]
Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.
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tehjoker ◴[] No.39146315[source]
Zionism is an ideology that took inspiration from the British empire. It was intended to be "something colonial" and pre-dated the atrocities of WW2. The fascist atrocities in WW2 can be interpreted as colonial tactics applied to Europeans, after all the British had been doing extremely bloody concentration camps in Africa and starved India during WW2. For some reason, Africa doesn't get the same play. I wonder why.

So people that engage in colonialism end up doing similar crimes. Israel remains probably the only old school colonial project in the present day with present day technology, backed by the U.S. empire to secure geopolitical interests in the oil-rich region among other things.

Something to think about: America is also a genocidal settler-colonial project and is one of the only nations to back Israel in the UN. Our genocide is still ongoing: visit a native american reservation and witness the immense poverty. Similarly to Gaza, the US state will simply say that despite being an occupying power, these are autonomous zones and we have little responsibility.

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vladgur ◴[] No.39146489[source]
Modern-day Zionism to me and many others means that Israel has the right to exist.

It does not absolve many, including self-proclaimed Zionists, from criticizing some of Israel policies.

On other hand, my interpretation of people who are self-proclaimed anti-Zionists logically flows from above statement that they believe that the present state of Israel DOES NOT have a right to exist. Which implies deportation of extermination of 6 million Jewish Israelis

In my opinion, the word Zionism has been hijacked by activists who know that being anti-Jewish is not good optics, but anti-Zionizm is still something that can be sold to the masses.

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1. tehjoker ◴[] No.39146531[source]
I'm Jewish and I believe that Palestine should be a single democratic state that guarantees rights to all. No one has a right to an ethnostate, not even us. You see directly where this thinking leads — genocide.
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2. exe34 ◴[] No.39146665[source]
Last time the Palestinians in Gaza got a vote, they voted Hamas, which has a charter based on eradication of the Jews. Are you sure you want them voting in the same state as you?
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3. nickff ◴[] No.39146704[source]
Jewish people have been murdered & driven out of almost every other middle-eastern country (where they used to be substantial parts of the population). What are their chances of surviving in an Arab-dominated Palestine? Note that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian authority is particularly keen on democracy.
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4. vladgur ◴[] No.39146726[source]
Israel has a 20% Arab population who have the same rights as non-Arab citizens. They work in schools, hospitals, government, including the supreme court.

On other hand, Palestinians living in Gaza have elected a terrorist group[1] to govern them nearly two decades ago and have been subject to UN-sponsored education that teaches kids to hate Jews[2] for decades.

A single democratic state of Palestine with Palestinians and Israelis co-existing is impossible with current Palestinian leadership and the generations taught hatred.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...

[2] https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-...

5. tehjoker ◴[] No.39146744[source]
You must recognize that Hamas was elected after the continuous failure of the PLO to win concessions after Oslo, which abandoned the guiding principles of International Law in favor of "trusting the parties", but Israel, the more powerful party was able to dictate terms. A return to root cause analysis combined with the just principles of international law will see a fair deal. Arabs do not want to fight, they just want to be able to go home.

The fascist behavior I see coming from Israelis is completely repulsive and against everything I thought my religion stood for.

From the Hamas charter (2017).

"6. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

6. charred_patina ◴[] No.39147317[source]
As a westerner, I have never heard a single person in the western sphere mention a peaceful, non-occupational one state solution. How common is the idea of a democratic single state solution in Israeli politics? Do the advocates for it have a plan for dealing with the backlash from extremists on both sides? I'd like to read more about it. Now in the west it seems like even the two-state solution isn't up for discussion post-Trump.
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7. shilgapira ◴[] No.39147589[source]
> No one has a right to an ethnostate

Israel is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the western world. In particular, it is more ethnically diverse than almost every single country in Europe. What ethnostate?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

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8. shilgapira ◴[] No.39147879[source]
> What are their chances of surviving in an Arab-dominated Palestine?

Absolutely zero, and the people proposing this know that. That tells you all you need to know, really.

[1] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/jew...

9. Sporktacular ◴[] No.39147942[source]
How it is is not the same as how some would wish it to be.
10. Sporktacular ◴[] No.39147962[source]
Okay. So get behind a two-state solution then.
11. tehjoker ◴[] No.39148449[source]
It is a marginal opinion, but in my view the only one that offers a chance at real peace.

Here's a piece on it:

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/one-democratic-state-pale...

12. toyg ◴[] No.39150009[source]
The idea is common, but is rejected by the Israeli mainstream because they fear demographic changes - Palestinians are poor, so they have bigger families, hence eventually they would outnumber ethnic Jews and <insert fear here>.

If this sounds very similar to "great replacement" fears in US and Europe, it's because it is based on the exact same principles: the concept that a state's ethnic composition should be fundamentally immutable, and it's legitimate to fight against any threat to this immutability with discriminatory laws (or worse).

Unsurprisingly, that means that the European right, these days, have largely dropped their traditional antisemitism, and will happily share a platform with the Israeli government. The fact that a purposely Jewish state now cooperates with the heirs of Hitler and Mussolini should surely appear revolting to Israeli citizens. Alas, it does not.

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13. alexisread ◴[] No.39150864{3}[source]
Funnily enough, these arguments also deliberately ignore second generations, which by virtue of living in the country, they form a more cohesive identity based on the country itself, so diluting this ethnic composition in usually a positive fashion.