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"No, it's less effort than that"

(smartguess.is)
388 points replyifuagree | 3 comments | 21 Oct 23 04:43 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source
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throwaway091ba ◴[21 Oct 23 11:26 UTC] No.37965914[source]▶
Whenever this estimation question comes up, developers rarely put themselves in the shoes of the business side, and try to understand why there needs to be an estimate, and why shorter is always better than longer. What they do instead, is try to protect their holy land of software development, and exacerbate the differences between engineers and "the others" - sarcasm and cynisism usually shine through at this time, and that's how you end up with unrealistic estimations.

I've been a developer, PO, manager, director, CTO, the whole thing. I'm still shocked by how most (not all, but most) developers are simply too disconnected from the reality that, yes, they do need to provide value, and yes, that value does have a time factor. Lucky are we as developers, that people actually ASK us how long it will take, and give us the opportunity to explain it, push back, and actually defend your estimates. The sad reality (at least from 90% of my career), is that developers are rarely able to actually engage in business-level conversations, and actually express their thoughts/ideas/concerns/proposals, in a way that it drives the conversation forward. In a way that helps PMs and managers actually see the complexities of the work, and engage in healthy cost/benefit discussions.

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Aeolun ◴[21 Oct 23 12:18 UTC] No.37966181[source]▶
What a weird thing to say. If you ask me how long it takes to grow a baby, and I say, 9 months. Am I not cooperating with the business when you want it in 6?

No amount of effort on either your or my part is going to make the baby appear faster.

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rrr_oh_man ◴[21 Oct 23 14:13 UTC] No.37966932[source]▶
> Why do you need a baby?

> Do you need to grow your own, or could you adopt?

> Is it about birth itself? Does it have to be a human baby?

> Does the baby need to be related to you?

> What if we hire a baby actor?

…

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CipherThrowaway ◴[21 Oct 23 14:31 UTC] No.37967067[source]▶
Honestly, asking these kinds of business level questions as a dev is a great way to be seen as stubborn and uncooperative in businesses where the mindset of the OP comment has taken root.

The managers who complain about their devs not thinking at the business level are usually the ones shooting them down when they do. Why are the coders questioning why we need the baby?

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1. rrr_oh_man ◴[21 Oct 23 14:38 UTC] No.37967143[source]▶
It might be, if it’s directionless pushback instead of genuine curiosity to understand the need of the internal customer.

From my personal experience, people are often positively delighted when you make an effort to try to understand them and their needs.

Not shooting down your experience, but from my perspective it could be seen as a straw man argument in favour of never trying in the first place.

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2. CipherThrowaway ◴[21 Oct 23 15:12 UTC] No.37967470[source]▶
I'm not saying "don't try." And I'm also not disagreeing that people, on the whole, respond well to attempts to understand them and communicate with them.

My observation is that it is ultimately organizational culture that frames the way people communicate and how they understand each other. Individuals can move the needle a bit depending on the size of the company and their position in it. But largely they are powerless against the prevailing culture.

In a healthy organization, your efforts to understand the rest of the business and its needs will be accepted as you intend and will benefit yourself, your team and the business. In the average toxic organization, your good intentions won't matter and your questions won't be received the way you intend. Staying upbeat and helpful in these environments might even result in you being punished.

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3. rrr_oh_man ◴[22 Oct 23 06:15 UTC] No.37973230[source]▶
Thanks for the clarification!