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341 points hlandau | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0.433s | source
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mike_d ◴[] No.37962674[source]
Great callout:

> Don't use Cloudflare or similar services. See my article here for an explanation on why. If you use a service like this, you're basically already MitMing yourself.

I wish more people would realize that when arguing on the internet about CAA, DNSSEC, NSA, etc. that none of it really matters. We willingly allow a government aligned entity to unwrap 20% of all TLS connections on the internet and peak inside.

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worldofmatthew ◴[] No.37962900[source]
Cloudflare is horrible for privacy. It is also a bit of a sovereignty issue for European countries to have all their citizens web habits to be MITM by a forging power (no matter how friendly they seam).

Edit: not even going in to the sovereignty issue of having an American private company effectively decide your internet regulations.

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schleck8 ◴[] No.37964622[source]
Cloudflare exists out of necessity for the most part. The alternatives to shield from large scale DDoS are all US American too.
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1. KronisLV ◴[] No.37965678[source]
> Cloudflare exists out of necessity for the most part.

I agree with this, there don't seem to be that much self-hosted software that someone could (easily) setup for the use cases that Cloudflare serves.

> The alternatives to shield from large scale DDoS are all US American too.

Not only that, but the WAF functionality is also pretty useful. To be honest, the same applies to something like wanting to have CAPTCHAs on your own site - not that many options out there.

As far as I can tell as a hobbyist, if you wanted to host everything yourself:

  - dealing with load: at best you can probably just run multiple nodes with round robin DNS and something like HAProxy, or even just live with Nginx/Apache/Caddy, though all of those would crumble under attack; probably with some resource limits in place so the software getting overloaded just crashes it (with automatic restarts) and doesn't grind the entire server down to a halt
  - WAF: you could get a basic WAF running with something like Apache2 and mod_security, or if you can compile it for Nginx and get it working (a bit annoying to do, also apparently slower than Apache2 version), or something like Coraza (still new), but even then you need sets of rules, OWASP has some, but they're not updated as often as whatever Cloudflare uses, so the effectiveness of it all is debatable; there's also something like fail2ban, but some people really don't like it for some reason
  - there's also additional stuff you can use, like LibreCaptcha for CAPTCHAs, something like Keycloak or Authentik for SSO and managing your users on prem (especially with mod_auth_openidc), stuff like Matomo Analytics instead of GA, Uptime Kuma for uptime monitoring, even your own self-hosted mail servers if you feel brave; but all of those take effort and need maintenance
And even then, certain things are not an option - you won't be shrugging off huge DDoS attacks and you probably won't be running your own CDN (easily), unless you have bunches of money to spend and the know-how. So of course people would rely on external orgs for whatever they can.
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2. immibis ◴[] No.37974506[source]
As a hobbyist, dealing with load consists of upgrading your $5 VPS to a $10 VPS or even a $50 dedicated server from Hetzner(!) - note that *no* other provider has dedicated servers at this price point.

WAFs are heuristics at best. If what you're running on your server is actually secure, you don't need a WAF. If it's not secure, the WAF is guaranteed to let through at least one attack.

CAPTCHAs are difficult. Try to avoid depending on them, but it's fair to use a third-party service if you need one. hCaptcha is pretty easy to integrate right now.

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3. smw ◴[] No.37976626[source]
If someone tries to send you more traffic than your link supports, your only way to survive it is if your provider can filter it. Cloudflare will actually do a decent job of that even on the free plans.
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4. immibis ◴[] No.37977160{3}[source]
"Survive" is hyperbolic. If someone DDoSes your $5 website and it is down for a day until you sign up for Cloudflare, you do not literally die. You do not need to sell everyone's 24/7 browsing history to Cloudflare to keep your heart beating.
5. greenreaper ◴[] No.38007198[source]
OVH absolutely does have dedicated servers at this price point, and below - check out their Eco range (previously SoYouStart) or even Kimsufi. Leaseweb often does as well, although they have not been as good a deal recently from my perspective (and can cost more for transfer).