Most active commenters
  • haldujai(10)
  • robbiep(3)

←back to thread

239 points giuliomagnifico | 45 comments | | HN request time: 2.238s | source | bottom
1. barbegal ◴[] No.36213140[source]
The headline is misleading. The actual study proved that the recorded date of admission to hospital in Ireland with ST-segment elevation myocardial infarction was increased on a Sunday and Monday. Increased admissions on a Monday is not that unusual given that people often seek medical attention after the weekend but maybe more surprising is the increase on a Sunday. https://heart.bmj.com/content/109/Suppl_3/A78
replies(8): >>36213241 #>>36213290 #>>36213562 #>>36213909 #>>36214664 #>>36216341 #>>36217855 #>>36219532 #
2. haldujai ◴[] No.36213241[source]
From the methods section of the abstract: “We excluded post-fibrinolysis patients, patients with old stents, and those who presented more than 24 hours after the onset of pain.”[edit: I misread the PDF version which included multiple abstracts, the methods I’m referring to was from a separate study with the title cutoff, this specific abstract didn’t specify. But from below and table 1 in: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/20140... which looked at 68,000 STEMIs, 3.1% presented > 12 hours and 8.4% had an unknown time of symptom onset. Wouldn’t explain the magnitude of effect seen in this study. Circadian effects on STEMI and increased incidence on Monday are not new observations.]

Don’t think late presentation STEMIs are that common to begin with for your argument to have logical sense, this is the worst form of a “heart attack”.

From this single center study presentations > 12 hours only comprised 10%.

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/wk/jcarm/2017/0000001...

replies(2): >>36214640 #>>36215022 #
3. magicalhippo ◴[] No.36213290[source]
Staffing tends to be lower on weekends AFAIK, could it be triggered by extra stress from not getting proper care during the weekend?

Another possible factor could be the fact that doctors tend to make more mistakes during operations on Fridays compared to start of week.

replies(1): >>36213392 #
4. haldujai ◴[] No.36213392[source]
Not for a STEMI specifically, it’s one of two ECG patterns even a radiologist like me knows how to read. This is a stronger argument for other diseases. Door to balloon target in STEMI is 90 minutes.

STEMI centers (this is picked up by EMS and these ambulances are redirected to appropriate centers) have 24/7 cath lab coverage and any major one will have an ER bypass even during afterhours to expedite care.

In fact more and more hospitals (and all the major ones) announce a “Code STEMI” overhead either when the ambulance is dispatched or as soon as the ECG showing ST elevations is discovered in triage/ER to activate the team and reduce door-to-balloon time.

replies(2): >>36215245 #>>36219408 #
5. pixl97 ◴[] No.36213562[source]
>more surprising is the increase on a Sunday.

This doesn't seem that surprising to me, or at least I expect we should also see an increase on Saturday. People like to do harder work, like lawn projects on the weekend, and things like drinking that can affect the heart.

replies(1): >>36213701 #
6. coffeeshopgoth ◴[] No.36213701[source]
So the "Sunday Scaries" are real - where you dread going into your toxic job on Monday. Diet and genetics are big contributors to the blockages forming, and the stress sets it off. I had mine (which lead to a double bypass) on a Sunday morning. My job, at the time, was very high stress and I started dreaded going in every Sunday. I could feel panic attacks welling up on Sundays quite often. This is absolutely just opinion, but talking to some other people that were in the hospital with me, it sounded like I definitely wasn't alone in this life experience.
replies(1): >>36214040 #
7. treeman79 ◴[] No.36213909[source]
When you’ve had a number of issues over the years at some point, you just have to kind of keep working and go to the ER on your off hours.
8. prepend ◴[] No.36214040{3}[source]
Victor Frankl said in Man’s Search for Meaning: > Sunday neurosis, that kind of depression which afflicts people who become aware of the lack of content in their lives when the rush of the busy week is over and the void within themselves becomes manifest.

So it wasn’t so much about dreading the coming week but being still from the previous week and being sad about what they actually accomplished (or didn’t).

replies(2): >>36217485 #>>36218778 #
9. barbegal ◴[] No.36214640[source]
Thanks for links to those extra studies. The 3.1% and 10% presented > 12 hours are averaged across all days of the week not just the Sunday to Monday gap which is likely to be greater given the reduction in public services in Ireland on a Sunday. Do you know of previous studies which report Monday as being particularly risky? I can only find references to time of day (circadian cycle) which obviously make sense given how many bodily processes are linked to a circadian cycle but I'm skeptical about a weekly cycle (which I find confusing to be referred to as circadian also)
replies(1): >>36216507 #
10. dspillett ◴[] No.36214664[source]
> maybe more surprising is the increase on a Sunday

I don't think that seems surprising. People working office jobs through the week go out and drink more on a Friday and Saturday night, and those of a more sporty bent will often push their bodies more at the weekend because that is when they can find the time for longer or multiple training sessions, and it is where you find organised events (the highest proportion of runs are on a Sunday, with the second highest being Saturday).

replies(2): >>36214709 #>>36215647 #
11. interlinked ◴[] No.36214709[source]
Aren't sports good for heart?
replies(5): >>36214838 #>>36215759 #>>36215891 #>>36215913 #>>36219226 #
12. slashdev ◴[] No.36214838{3}[source]
Not if you’re on the verge of a heart attack. Also slightly more controversially, I think very vigorous/taxing sport (like marathons) could do more harm than good. Like a u shaped distribution where moderate exercise is the sweet spot.
13. tgv ◴[] No.36215022[source]
What is the effect in this study? The linked article has no info, not even the doi.
replies(1): >>36215613 #
14. selimthegrim ◴[] No.36215245{3}[source]
How common is it for a non-cardiologist know how to read ECGs? Is it something required in medical school? I heard a critique of Soviet medical training that nonspecialists didn’t know how to read them.
replies(3): >>36215674 #>>36216160 #>>36218699 #
15. OJFord ◴[] No.36215613{3}[source]
I linked it in another comment, but that's now a flag-hidden thread, so: https://heart.bmj.com/content/109/Suppl_3/A78.abstract
replies(1): >>36217393 #
16. renewiltord ◴[] No.36215647[source]
There has to be an Internet Law that nothing is surprising - whether it is true or false. Every statement, true or false, has an explanation for why it is true.
replies(1): >>36216844 #
17. OJFord ◴[] No.36215674{4}[source]
The basics definitely taught & required of all junior docs (UK) - but it's nuanced, not just a binary 'read an ECG correct or incorrect' - a specialist might spot something someone else doesn't; two specialists might disagree on whether it shows something or not. (And an interested (inherently non-specialist) junior might notice something a bored & rushed specialist doesn't.)
replies(2): >>36216023 #>>36216108 #
18. hansvm ◴[] No.36215759{3}[source]
They're probably a net positive on average given the reductions in weight and blood pressure and whatnot, but there's a lot of variability, both in short-term trauma and long-term accumulated damage.
19. dspillett ◴[] No.36215891{3}[source]
Depends on what state the heart is in to start with.
20. falcor84 ◴[] No.36215913{3}[source]
Sports are apparently good for the heart in the medium-long term, but can be very taxing (read: dangerous) for the heart while you're actually doing it.
21. antonjs ◴[] No.36216023{5}[source]
Seems like the perfect application for some kind of first pass (in the ambulance,even) automated ML diagnostic, given the data is 2D, well characterized, and mostly repeating.

Edit: aha--https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-15432-4

replies(1): >>36216144 #
22. haldujai ◴[] No.36216108{5}[source]
Agree in general, even if one knew this at one point or know the textbook appearances patients don't read textbooks and there's nuance to everything. Unless you're actively exposed to/interpreting ECGs in clinical practice you lose the skill.

When I was an intern I was 100x better than I am at this point in my career.

The basic atrial fibrillation and STEMI is something any doctor can interpret with confidence (I used myself as an example as I'm probably the least competent because I haven't looked at an ECG in 10 years). I doubt non-cardiac surgeons are much better on average as they don't really look at these themselves that often other than for basic things.

An ER or general internal medicine physician is expected to be competent in more advanced but common stuff like bundle branch blocks, left ventricular hypertrophy, non ST elevated MI.

Weird arrhythmias or conduction abnormalities is really only for cardiologists, and even then typically a subspecialist electrophysiologist.

23. haldujai ◴[] No.36216144{6}[source]
We've had computer-reads/AI on ECGs since I was a medical student. Really good at detecting normal, bad at everything else.

US/Can healthcare systems still pay a cardiologist a couple of bucks to "finalize" the interpretation whenever they get around to it. It's a bit ironic, someone could have an MI on Friday, get treated and discharged and we're still paying someone on the Monday to read 40 ECGs (note these would have been acutely interpreted by the cardiologist treating the patient, most places have rules against self-referrals so you can't formally interpret anything you order yourself).

24. importantbrian ◴[] No.36216160{4}[source]
My wife is a nurse, and they definitely learned how to read ECGs in nursing school, and she later worked in a cardiac ICU where she got additional training. She couldn't read a 12 lead and notice all the things that a cardiologist would, but for STEMIs and a few others she was trained to recognize them and call a code.
replies(1): >>36216588 #
25. 3minus1 ◴[] No.36216341[source]
Thanks for linking this. I wish the article included actual stats like the scientists expected about 1500 admissions per day, but Sun/Mon had over 1600, while the other days were between 1400 and 1500.
26. haldujai ◴[] No.36216507{3}[source]
They include an off-hours subgroup which comprises of weekday after hours as well as weekends and represents 2/3rds of cases. They don't provide a further breakdown but in this after-hours group delayed presentation was even lower (2.9%) and they report statistical significance (although it looks like a multivariate P value at a quick glance). Unknown (10%) is hard to interpret what that actually means.

Just knowing the pathology of STEMI it's hard to buy that an effect of this size (in the Ireland study) is largely due patient's not seeking care on weekends unless you're somewhere extremely rural as this isn't your average heart attack.

If this was about ACS (acute coronary syndrome) in general I'd be more suspicious that patient delays are a relevant confounder, but we have other literature to support the trend (granted with some conflicting studies).

from [1]: > Many studies have shown an excess of cardiovascular events on Mondays (1,3,10,16,18,19). A relative trough has been seen on Saturdays and Sundays I compared with the expected number of cases. A similar pattern was seen in most subgroups irrespective of age, gender, cardiac medication, and in-fart characteristics (first or recurrent, Q or non-Q, site). The frequency of morning infarction is greater during the working week than on weekends, suggesting a superimposition of work-related stress on endogenous circadian rhythms.

>Circadian variation is found on all days of the week including weekends' when the morning peak is less obvious.

I haven't looked at the methodology of the cited studies but they include 6 references for your perusal.

[0]https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/clc.22 [1]https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/clc.4960261... [2]https://europepmc.org/article/med/12061302

27. haldujai ◴[] No.36216588{5}[source]
Your wife would be more skilled than the vast majority of surgeons and radiologists at this as she looks at rhythm strips them way more than we do, and none of these physicians would hesitate to admit this.

Honestly, when I have an ICU nurse providing procedural sedation for me I essentially just defer to their expertise on the rhythms and if they're worried I activate the mobile response team.

replies(1): >>36216872 #
28. CDRdude ◴[] No.36216844{3}[source]
Yes, but that law isn’t surprising. The internet brings such a wide variety of life experience and education into the same discussion that there is always someone for whom the statement is obvious given their life experience.
29. importantbrian ◴[] No.36216872{6}[source]
> Honestly, when I have an ICU nurse providing procedural sedation for me I essentially just defer to their expertise on the rhythms and if they're worried I activate the mobile response team.

That matches with my impression about a lot of things in her job. I'm always a little surprised when she talks about calling the doctor saying I need X, Y and Z and the doctor just being like cool I'll put in the order. Obviously, not all doctors are like that but it seems like the vast majority defer to the nurses in a lot of situations. This is completely different than the conception I had of healthcare before I met her.

replies(1): >>36217343 #
30. haldujai ◴[] No.36217343{7}[source]
I love working with ICU nurses. Generally speaking they are are very competent and very much respect their scope (both physicians and nurses overstepping is a recipe for disaster) so it's an incredibly healthy and collaborative relationship.

> I'm always a little surprised when she talks about calling the doctor saying I need X, Y and Z and the doctor just being like cool I'll put in the order.

This is the best part. A lot of decisions like sleeping aids, antipsychotics, antiemetics don't have evidence to choose from the various options so it's a bit of trial and error. An ICU nurse typically covers 1-2 patients and knows them very well, so if the recommend/ask for something it's usually the right decision and reduces the cognitive burden on the physician. We obviously still do a safety/sanity check but ballpark estimate I'd say I disagree or order something else < 5% of the time.

Similarly I'd say the proportion of bullshit overnight pages (e.g. I fondly remember a 4am call that a patient has leg cramps) I've received from ICU nurses are even less than that.

General ward nurses on the other hand... A very heterogeneous bunch with high turnover (worse in academia, at my last hospital average career length was ~2 years before they leave for greener pastures) so the relationship is very different.

Not that I don't appreciate them or their work, but far less trust in decision making and they need more oversight.

31. tgv ◴[] No.36217393{4}[source]
Thanks for the link. I'm not impressed by the effect at first sight. I certainly wouldn't want to exclude anything based on it. I mean, it's 13% more on Monday, which makes it "significant", but if you subtract the 3.1% you mention, you get close to the Sunday fraction, which isn't significant (p>0.05, which is a lousy statistic anyway). While it looks there's something going on, it's not enough to ignore the effects of data manipulation.
replies(1): >>36219383 #
32. CobaltFire ◴[] No.36217485{4}[source]
Damn, I need to reread that book. I'm struggling with that now; I just retired at 40 and am looking for meaning in my life with that exact issue popping up.
replies(1): >>36218568 #
33. hinkley ◴[] No.36217855[source]
I wonder how much that diminishes if you control for DST weekend.

We already had evidence that the time shift increases heart attacks.

I’m planning to just ignore DST this year. I’ll show up a little early for work half the year, and a little late for the rest.

34. prepend ◴[] No.36218568{5}[source]
It was the first time I remembered someone describing the small depression one experiences after accomplishing a goal and it was funny because wasn’t something I remember hearing about from others. Mentally, I called if “post-summit malaise.”

I suppose it’s a nice problem to have but still uncomfortable. Congratulations on your retirement and hope you get to figure it out and find a new mountain to climb.

35. robbiep ◴[] No.36218699{4}[source]
If you can’t read a critical ECG you failed medical school
replies(1): >>36222872 #
36. coffeeshopgoth ◴[] No.36218778{4}[source]
I have read it, and yes, this is true...but I actually had a boss that would just demean you in front of anyone and every so often threw a chair, so my stress was coming from multiple fronts.
replies(1): >>36220981 #
37. elzbardico ◴[] No.36219226{3}[source]
In the long run, if you increase your intensity slowly, giving time for your body to build up increased fitness it tends to be mostly positive. But the short-term stress can be fatal if you are already on the verge of a myocardial event.
38. haldujai ◴[] No.36219383{5}[source]
You're assuming that the 3.1% for > 12 hours is different between weekdays and weekends. While the study you're quoting grouped after-hours with weekends there were less delayed presentations in this subgroup compared to the M-F business hours group.

Other weekday numbers will also have delayed presentations included so you can't just "subtract 3.1" from one day and declare statistical insignificance.

What you can do is subtract it from every day as we know that 97% of STEMIs present within 12 hours.

As this is just an abstract we don't know what the authors did in this particular example but it's not the first study to suggest Mondays have the highest ACS rates.

39. clairity ◴[] No.36219408{3}[source]
any recommendations for a crash course in cardiology for the motivated learner? (randomly searching the internet being really inefficient for this type of targeted learning. motivated, as in, diagnosed with a significant coronary artery blockage.)
40. outworlder ◴[] No.36219532[source]
> but maybe more surprising is the increase on a Sunday.

Anxiety due the the looming work week?

41. pixl97 ◴[] No.36220981{5}[source]
God, these days I'd love that. Record it and you have the perfect 'hostile work environment suit'.
42. haldujai ◴[] No.36222872{5}[source]
I'm not sure what you practice but that's far too dismissive. I passed med school just fine and maintain my ACLS certification as required. Am I calling an AV block or even a STEMI in real life? Absolutely not.

I maintain enough competence to know when it looks like it could be critical so I can call for help, but realistically that's happening anyway as soon as someone gets unstable as I haven't resuscitated someone in years.

I haven't looked at a real patient's ECG in probably 7 years now. If you were the patient, would you even want me to? I'd rather just do the smart and safe thing, call for help.

No subspecialist (or even specialist) can maintain competence in all areas of medicine, it's hard enough keeping up my general radiology skills. It's a good thing none of us practice in silos by definition.

replies(1): >>36223723 #
43. robbiep ◴[] No.36223723{6}[source]
The statement I made was if you can't read a critical ECG then you failed medical school.

You have basically agreed with me. I made no statements about subspecialisation or attempt to reconcile the breadth of medical knowledge that is required as you progress through medical training into consultant status with that original knowledge, or implied that we're expected to be able to definitively diagnose and manage a patient with a ECG that implies an imminent threat to life.

Frankly I think that everyone should still be able to recognise a STEMI - it's pretty characteristic; the more severe or subtle AV blocks definitely take some familiarity; but the bedrock principle of ACLS is calling for help, and medicine is certainly a team sport

replies(1): >>36226780 #
44. haldujai ◴[] No.36226780{7}[source]
Apologies, I misunderstood your point. I thought you were criticizing that I can't read every ECG pattern in ACLS (what I assumed you meant by critical).
replies(1): >>36254732 #
45. robbiep ◴[] No.36254732{8}[source]
All good!