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256 points hirundo | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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iq_throw_123 ◴[] No.35518554[source]
Imagine that, 150 years ago or whenever, some clever soul had decided to make a written test to measure niceness, and called the test score Niceness Quotient. And the first version sucked, but some other folks iterated on it and over time the test was improved until it correlated pretty well to the sorts of things you would think that niceness would correlate to. 150 years of progress later, we'd have a whole field of Niceometry and researchers trying to isolate sub-areas like charity, friendliness, etc, and trying to suss out an underlying factor of general amiability, and the whole thing would be so well embedded in to the culture that almost no one remembers that "nice" is just a regular word with no objective or scientific definition, and that we measure it with a written test not because that's a good way to measure niceness but because we can't find a better way.
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QuiDortDine ◴[] No.35519437[source]
This is a terrible analogy, IQ tests measure something real and objective called the g factor : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)

Also, intelligence tests are but a tiny part of psychology, I would hardly call it a "whole field".

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iq_throw_123 ◴[] No.35519683[source]
> IQ tests measure something real and objective called the g factor

Sure, and NQ tests do too, because look how well graciousness correlates with cheerfulness! That can't be an accident, can it?

Less snarkily, a better analogy would be athletic ability. Suppose you take a bunch of people and measure how fast they can run, how well they can shoot free throws, and how far they can throw a football. Will the results be correlated? Of course, some people are more athletic than others. Does that mean there's a quantity called 'athleticism' that we can objectively measure with a number? No; and not because all people are equally athletic, but because you're trying to take a squishy subjective English language word and pretend it's a scalar value.

> I would hardly call it a "whole field".

The problem isn't the size of the field, it's that academics work within their field, they don't refute it. There's a very uncomfortable result about IQ tests that a generation of psychologists have tried to explain away, and I maintain that the reason they haven't succeeded is because they are institutionally incapable of saying, "Hey, maybe this is pseudoscience."

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QuiDortDine ◴[] No.35519954[source]
Respectfully, you chose the wrong hill to die on. Psychology has many squishy parts, but psychometry is basically the closest thing it has to a hard science.

The other comment adresses your NQ argument, but here's something I don't understand: "There's a very uncomfortable result about IQ tests that a generation of psychologists have tried to explain away"

This reeks of anti-intellectualism by the way ("can't trust the experts!"), but I am curious to know what you're referring to. It can't be the validity or reliability of IQ tests, surely? Both have been very solidly established for a long time.

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thworp ◴[] No.35523058[source]
No, actually it is thoroughly debunked as a measure of anything useful (except scores below ~80) and its significance as a predictor is miniscule. I recommend you read this: https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-...
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walkhour ◴[] No.35524670[source]
That article is largely a pseudoscientific swindle, and it has repeatedly been rebutted, please see https://archive.ph/PCvgk.

Overall I'd recommend not taking a single article and using it as something that can refute a whole science.

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1. runarberg ◴[] No.35528667[source]
How about a whole book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man

How about a video essay which summarizes other critiques:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBc7qBS1Ujo

What if you look at the numerous false predictions of IQ research:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Or a peer reviewed summary which got published in an academic journal with over a 100 citations:

http://www.swisswuff.ch/files/richardson2002whatiqteststest.... (PDF)

Overall I’d recommend regularly reviewing the literature to assess where the scientific consensus is around a theory is. To date, the literature does not support any consensus around the theory of general intelligence nor the efficacy of IQ as a theory for intelligence.

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2. walkhour ◴[] No.35529819[source]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man

Doesn't this author have a terrible reputation? And he's known for standing by disproven theories? I'm surprised you didn't find a better example.

> How about a video essay which summarizes other critiques:

Sorry, I haven't watched these 2 hours and 40 minutes, can I read the summary somewhere? Hopefully it's better than Nassim's article.

> Or a peer reviewed summary which got published in an academic journal with over a 100 citations

What is a peer reviewed summary? Is it like a meta-analysis? But honest questions: how much weight do you think this has? Are the citations supporting it or criticising it?

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Looks like an example of bad science that was caught and exposed? Why do you think this reflects badly on the rest of the research?

> To date, the literature does not support any consensus around the theory of general intelligence nor the efficacy of IQ as a theory for intelligence.

You are asking for consensus. Do you mean an ultra majority? There's no consensus even on whether climate change is real, only 97% of scientist think so. Could you give percentages of who supports what on the science of IQ.

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3. runarberg ◴[] No.35532169[source]
Is there any source of scrutiny you’d accept as valid criticism?

Seriously though, the burden of proof shouldn’t be on the anti-IQ crowd. IQ is a new construct, that proponents have been trying to justify for over half a century. At some point, repeated failures to convince a broader field of its utility should be evidence enough that it might not be worth investigating. Yes, sometimes there are worthy theories which receive unfair treatment, like e.g. continental drift, however even Wegener’s theory took less than 50 years to be accepted, and I bet IQ research has received orders of magnitude more funding and attention than Wegener ever did.

To date, the only evidence for IQ and the g-factor comes from the tests them selves, the construct is not used in any models outside of the field of psychometrics (while psychometrics them selves is becoming more and more fringe as a science). It’s use has historically been focused around racist conjectures and eugenics.

Even though I shouldn’t I’m still gonna give one more shot at finding evidence of the increasing irrelevance of IQ in modern science. I searched for “IQ cognitive psychology” on google scholar. While I did find some attempts of researchers trying to merge psychometrics and Cognitive Psychology, however when Dennis et.al (2009) actually went ahead and looked how useful IQ was in a common neurodevelopmental model, they found it was simply in the way:

> Using IQ as a matching variable or covariate has produced overcorrected, anomalous, and counterintuitive findings about neurocognitive function.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-the-inter...

In my search results I also found another paper, which I couldn’t access, dating all the way to 1988, which seems to be making the same case as I that IQ is on its way to the history books: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0168863880840087...