Most active commenters

    ←back to thread

    256 points hirundo | 11 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
    Show context
    JoeAltmaier ◴[] No.35518164[source]
    When IQ tests were invented folks didn't know about tests, at least in the US. They were rural immigrants who could maybe read. So when asked logic questions, they would answer pragmatically and be 'wrong'. That had some impact on perceived early low results.

    As folks became better-read and educated they began to understand that IQ test questions were a sort of puzzle, not a real honest question. The answer was expected to solve the puzzle, not be right in any way.

    E.g. There are no Elephants in Germany. Munich is in Germany. How many elephants are there in Munich? A) 0 B) 1 C)2

    Folks back then might answer B or C, because they figure hey there's probably a zoo in Munich, bet they have an elephant or two there. And be marked wrong.

    replies(8): >>35518406 #>>35518599 #>>35518661 #>>35519064 #>>35519319 #>>35520774 #>>35521627 #>>35522433 #
    1. mock-possum ◴[] No.35518661[source]
    But… why would they answer B or C when they were just told the right answer was A? That doesn’t make any sense. They don’t need to ‘figure’ anything when they’ve been told that there are zero. That’s not even a puzzle, that’s just series of statements.

    That’d be like if you told me a tree was 10 feet tall, then asked me how tall it was and I said “10 feet 1 inch” because I figured it had grown at least an inch in the interim. Why figure when you should already know?

    replies(5): >>35518700 #>>35518802 #>>35518951 #>>35520342 #>>35520765 #
    2. yamtaddle ◴[] No.35518700[source]
    > But… why would they answer B or C when they were just told the right answer was A?

    Because there's a decent chance the initial statement isn't true.

    [EDIT] To clarify, it's the difference between a seasoned test-taker understanding implicitly that they're looking at a (very simple) logic puzzle, not a question about reality, and someone taking the question at face-value (and assuming the first statement's some kind of trick, or simply an error). In a sense, answering it "correctly" demands that you act dumber.

    [EDIT 2] I just checked, out of curiosity, and in fact the person who answers it "wrong" is closer to correct than the person who answers it "right", in actual reality. In a not-unreasonable sense, the "moron" who gets this wrong is more-correct than the trained monkey who answers zero. There's a zoo, evidently within the borders of Munich, and they do have elephants.

    replies(2): >>35520505 #>>35540356 #
    3. otikik ◴[] No.35518802[source]
    Because “are” can mean several things. One could assume that it means “in the wild” (ignoring things like zoos).
    4. vertere ◴[] No.35518951[source]
    Maybe they don't believe there are no elephants in Germany.

    If someone came up to you on the street and said "You are an elephant. Are you an elephant?" you wouldn't say "yes".

    replies(3): >>35519801 #>>35520029 #>>35520215 #
    5. joahua ◴[] No.35519801[source]
    Humanities offers 'genre' as a solution to this problem. A test, we would say, might be more expected to seek formal proof based on self-contained assertions. As such, it is different to a conversation in the street.

    This leaves the test author with a challenge of establishing genre as test rules-of-engagement.

    6. ForestCritter ◴[] No.35520029[source]
    Well...I could be the elephant in the room...
    7. chongli ◴[] No.35520215[source]
    As an AI language model, I cannot be an elephant sinc I don’t have a physical body or consciousness.

    Well, it was worth a try.

    8. peterashford ◴[] No.35520342[source]
    "there are no elephants in Germany" can mean "there are literally zero elephants in Germany" or it can mean "elephants are not endemic to Germany". Only the first excludes answers b and c. The latter does not. Language is often imprecise =)
    9. lotsofpulp ◴[] No.35520505[source]
    I feel like this is the Men in Black Will Smith testing montage.
    10. fauxpause_ ◴[] No.35520765[source]
    Compare these to reading comprehension tests on the SAT. Many of those questions ask “why did the author write x?” And all answers are valid insights to the whole piece, but only one is derived from X. It has to be learned to read questions literally imo. It’s not intuitive that questions are as dumb as they are. You must explicitly silence intuition, outside knowledge, social norms towards more impressive seeming insights, awareness of the bigger idea, etc.
    11. hnfong ◴[] No.35540356[source]
    To augment your points -

    This example makes me recall a Ted Talk by James Flynn (Why our IQ levels are higher than our grandparents'). There's a very relevant case he discusses, which I'll copy a snippet of the transcript:

    [quote]

    Now let me give you a sample of some of his interviews. He talked to the head man of a person in rural Russia. They'd only had, as people had in 1900, about four years of schooling. And he asked that particular person, what do crows and fish have in common? And the fellow said, "Absolutely nothing. You know, I can eat a fish. I can't eat a crow. A crow can peck at a fish. A fish can't do anything to a crow." And Luria said, "But aren't they both animals?" And he said, "Of course not. One's a fish. The other is a bird." And he was interested, effectively, in what he could do with those concrete objects.

    And then Luria went to another person, and he said to them, "There are no camels in Germany. Hamburg is a city in Germany. Are there camels in Hamburg?" And the fellow said, "Well, if it's large enough, there ought to be camels there." And Luria said, "But what do my words imply?" And he said, "Well, maybe it's a small village, and there's no room for camels." In other words, he was unwilling to treat this as anything but a concrete problem, and he was used to camels being in villages, and he was quite unable to use the hypothetical, to ask himself what if there were no camels in Germany.

    A third interview was conducted with someone about the North Pole. And Luria said, "At the North Pole, there is always snow. Wherever there is always snow, the bears are white. What color are the bears at the North Pole?" And the response was, "Such a thing is to be settled by testimony. If a wise person came from the North Pole and told me the bears were white, I might believe him, but every bear that I have seen is a brown bear." Now you see again, this person has rejected going beyond the concrete world and analyzing it through everyday experience, and it was important to that person what color bears were -- that is, they had to hunt bears. They weren't willing to engage in this. One of them said to Luria, "How can we solve things that aren't real problems? None of these problems are real. How can we address them?" Now, these three categories -- classification, using logic on abstractions, taking the hypothetical seriously -- how much difference do they make in the real world beyond the testing room? And let me give you a few illustrations.

    [/quote]

    ---

    We're educated to think that "abstract thinking" is a "good thing". But it doesn't really have to be the case. Of course I understand that for some complex real problems, the solution lies in finding and exploiting abstract connections, but I'd argue that a lot of modern society's problems lie in leaky or flawed abstractions that do more harm than good, but we still believe in those abstractions over real things. For example, we tend to cling onto "pretty" theories even when contradicted by factual data. We fight imaginary enemies all the time. We classify things into abstractions and apply generalizations, forgetting the nuances that differentiate them in the first place.

    The polar bear example was particularly striking to me, because for somebody who hasn't seen a polar bear before, it probably sounds like a trick question testing whether you're gullible enough to believe there are pink little men on Mars. Yet with modern "seasoned test-takers" they'd just take whatever premise given to them without asking questions -- probably the exact opposite of what you'd actually want from a person that knows how to think critically.