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231 points rntn | 1 comments | | HN request time: 1.304s | source
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hunglee2 ◴[] No.35413150[source]
I think we (Americans and Europeans alike) wholly underestimate how Americanised European culture is becoming.

This is an observation rather than a criticism as I don't know whether this is 'good' or 'bad' but it is noticeable phenomena manifest through language, and probably an unintended consequence of the dependency of Europe on US communication technology, leading to the import of US communication styles, political priorities and cultural values.

France have always been conscious of this, no doubt as a result of their centuries old conflict with England, but it is interesting now to see Italian nationalists responding similarly. It's futile of course, as neither Italians, French nor any combination of European countries can or will make an internet independent of the US

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pyuser583 ◴[] No.35413353[source]
But “Italian nationalists” aren’t a thing.

There have been Italian language wars in border regions but they fizzle once non-locals get involved.

For example, South Tyrol has a large German speaking population. The Italian government has historically encouraged adoption of Italian.

But South Tyrol has (had?) a large Sicilian population that supported the local German speakers.

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hunglee2 ◴[] No.35413433[source]
Very interesting observation!

I think it's great if local languages and identifies can continue to thrive, but I don't think it can be said that Italian nationalism isn't a thing though - it has explicitly been a thing as the suppression of regional dialects and the 'making of Italians' was a stated objective of Italian nationalists immediately after the unification of Italy.

btw this does not make Italy exceptional in any way, the way modern 'nation states' were built followed exactly this pattern - suppression of regional languages - 'cultural genocide' - and the creation a new national identity to replace them

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pyuser583 ◴[] No.35413671[source]
The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners.

It’s always been touch and go.

Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions.

Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties?

I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm.

No idea if that’s true.

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hunglee2 ◴[] No.35413839[source]
yes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right?

Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'

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samus ◴[] No.35414573[source]
It's considerably different in Italy since Florence never had any sort of political dominance over Italy. Even though it was very briefly formidable during the Renaissance, its influence has otherwise been mostly cultural only. Because of this, authors and scientists settled on a Koinè based on Florentine during the Renaissance. Until the 19th century, it was barely spoken, even in Tuscany.
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angrais ◴[] No.35415933[source]
I'm not sure that's quite correct given the banking sector (Medici) originates in Florence (Tuscany generally) who had considered political power over the pope (Rome), and hence across the kingdoms/country.
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1. samus ◴[] No.35416600[source]
I was actually referring to precisely that. And sponsoring Renaissance artists and scientist contributed to the eminence of Florentin.

Control over the Church was rarely as useful within Italy as outside of it. The papacy always had strong enemies on the peninsula. Much of its policy was dedicated to keep them divided and to ensure that those didn't ally with outside powers.