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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

(www.cnn.com)
231 points rntn | 3 comments | 02 Apr 23 17:19 UTC | HN request time: 0.011s | source
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hunglee2 ◴[02 Apr 23 17:47 UTC] No.35413150[source]▶
I think we (Americans and Europeans alike) wholly underestimate how Americanised European culture is becoming.

This is an observation rather than a criticism as I don't know whether this is 'good' or 'bad' but it is noticeable phenomena manifest through language, and probably an unintended consequence of the dependency of Europe on US communication technology, leading to the import of US communication styles, political priorities and cultural values.

France have always been conscious of this, no doubt as a result of their centuries old conflict with England, but it is interesting now to see Italian nationalists responding similarly. It's futile of course, as neither Italians, French nor any combination of European countries can or will make an internet independent of the US

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pyuser583 ◴[02 Apr 23 18:05 UTC] No.35413353[source]▶
But “Italian nationalists” aren’t a thing.

There have been Italian language wars in border regions but they fizzle once non-locals get involved.

For example, South Tyrol has a large German speaking population. The Italian government has historically encouraged adoption of Italian.

But South Tyrol has (had?) a large Sicilian population that supported the local German speakers.

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hunglee2 ◴[02 Apr 23 18:12 UTC] No.35413433[source]▶
Very interesting observation!

I think it's great if local languages and identifies can continue to thrive, but I don't think it can be said that Italian nationalism isn't a thing though - it has explicitly been a thing as the suppression of regional dialects and the 'making of Italians' was a stated objective of Italian nationalists immediately after the unification of Italy.

btw this does not make Italy exceptional in any way, the way modern 'nation states' were built followed exactly this pattern - suppression of regional languages - 'cultural genocide' - and the creation a new national identity to replace them

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pyuser583 ◴[02 Apr 23 18:33 UTC] No.35413671[source]▶
The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners.

It’s always been touch and go.

Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions.

Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties?

I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm.

No idea if that’s true.

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hunglee2 ◴[02 Apr 23 18:51 UTC] No.35413839[source]▶
yes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right?

Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'

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samus ◴[02 Apr 23 20:05 UTC] No.35414573[source]▶
It's considerably different in Italy since Florence never had any sort of political dominance over Italy. Even though it was very briefly formidable during the Renaissance, its influence has otherwise been mostly cultural only. Because of this, authors and scientists settled on a Koinè based on Florentine during the Renaissance. Until the 19th century, it was barely spoken, even in Tuscany.
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1. hunglee2 ◴[02 Apr 23 20:19 UTC] No.35414727{3}[source]▶
very interesting. So perhaps Florentine was an example of a 'neutral' (or at least acceptable compromise) language to be used as the national language.
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2. flopriore ◴[02 Apr 23 22:12 UTC] No.35415827[source]▶
Kinda yes, in addition it was the language in which 3 of the most important Italian poets (Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio) wrote. To be honest, even if Florentine became the official Italian language soon after Italy was unified in 1861, it wasn't until 1960s that Italians started to speak it everyday thanks to radio and TV. In addition, I would argue that the use of dialects is still a thing here (and these dialects not only are very different languages from Florentine, but they drastically differ within a range of 10 km from one town to another)
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3. samus ◴[03 Apr 23 06:40 UTC] No.35419406[source]▶
Even Tuscan dialects can be quite divergent from Standard Italian, as the latter branched off like 500 years ago.