Parse, don't validate (2019)

(lexi-lambda.github.io)

398 points declanhaigh | 1 comments | 07 Mar 23 08:47 UTC | HN request time: 0.226s | source

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jameshart ◴[07 Mar 23 13:24 UTC] No.35055031[source]▶

This post absolutely captures an essential truth of good programming.

Unfortunately, it conceals it behind some examples that - while they do a good job of illustrating the generality of its applicability - don’t show as well how to use this in your own code.

Most developers are not writing their own head method on the list primitive - they are trying to build a type that encapsulates a meaningful entity in their own domain. And, let’s be honest, most developers are also not using Haskell.

As a result I have not found this article a good one to share with junior developers to help them understand how to design types to capture the notion of validity, and to replace validation with narrowing type conversions (which amount to ‘parsing’ when the original type is something very loose like a string, a JSON blob, or a dictionary).

Even though absolutely those practices follow from what is described here.

Does anyone know of a good resource that better anchors these concepts in practical examples?

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lexi-lambda ◴[07 Mar 23 19:21 UTC] No.35059886[source]▶

>>35055031 #

> As a result I have not found this article a good one to share with junior developers to help them understand how to design types to capture the notion of validity, and to replace validation with narrowing type conversions (which amount to ‘parsing’ when the original type is something very loose like a string, a JSON blob, or a dictionary).

This is sort of true. It is a good technique, but it is a different technique. I went into how it is different in quite some detail in this followup blog post: https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2020/11/01/names-are-not-...

I think a common belief among programmers is that the true constructive modeling approach presented in the first blog post is not practical in languages that aren’t Haskell, so they do the “smart constructor” approach discussed in the link above instead. However, I think that isn’t actually true, it’s just a difference in how respective communities think about their type systems. In fact, you can definitely do constructive data modeling in other type systems, and I gave some examples using TypeScript in this blog post: https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2020/08/13/types-as-axiom...

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jameshart ◴[07 Mar 23 20:56 UTC] No.35061090[source]▶

>>35059886 #

Thanks for responding - just to reiterate, I am a big fan of this original post, and indeed your other writing - my only critique here is that I'm looking for ways to make the insights in them more transparent to, particularly, people who aren't well-positioned to analogize how to apply Haskell concepts to other languages.

I see you read 'narrowing type conversions' rather literally in my statement - that might be my making my own analogy that doesn't go over very well. I literally mean using 'constructive modeled types' is a way to create true type-narrowing conversions, in the sense that a 'nonempty list' is a narrower type than 'list', or 'one to five' is a narrower type than 'int'.

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1. lexi-lambda ◴[08 Mar 23 12:01 UTC] No.35067979[source]▶

>>35061090 #

You know what, you’re right—I misread your original comment. I was just going through this thread and replying to a number of comments making that particular misconception, since it is particularly common, but upon taking a closer look, you were saying something else. I apologize!

As for the difficulty in applying these ideas in other languages, I am sympathetic. The problem I always run into is that there is necessarily a tension between (a) presentations that are accessible to working programmers, (b) explanations that distill the essential ideas so they aren’t coupled to particular languages or language features, and (c) examples small enough to be clarifying and to fit in a blog post. Haskell is certainly not the best choice along that first axis, but it is quite exceptionally good along the second two.

For a somewhat concrete example of what I mean, see this comment I wrote a few years ago that translates the NonEmpty example into Java: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21478322 I think the added verbosity and added machinery really does detract significantly from understanding. Meanwhile, a TypeScript translation would make a definition like this one quite tempting:

    type NonEmpty<T> = [T, ...T[]]

However, I find this actually obscures application of the technique because it doesn’t scale to more complex examples (for the reasons I discussed at quite some length in https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2020/08/13/types-as-axiom...).

There are probably ways to thread this needle, but I don’t think any one “solution” is by any means obviously the best. I think the ways that other people have adapted the ideas to their respective ecosystems is probably a decent compromise.

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