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688 points hunglee2 | 15 comments | | HN request time: 1.082s | source | bottom
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dang ◴[] No.34712496[source]
All: Whether he is right or not or one likes him or not, Hersh reporting on this counts as significant new information (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...), so I've turned off the flags on this submission.

If you're going to comment in this thread, please make sure you're up on the site guidlelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and note this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." We don't want political or nationalistic flamewar here, and any substantive point can be made without it.

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1. nindalf ◴[] No.34713419[source]
Dan there’s no sugarcoating this - you’ve got it wrong on this one. I say this as a supporter of your moderation policies in general. The sooner you reverse this decision, the better for everyone.
replies(5): >>34714149 #>>34714581 #>>34714839 #>>34715045 #>>34716166 #
2. atdrummond ◴[] No.34714149[source]
It is disturbing how authoritatively you claim this.
3. tanseydavid ◴[] No.34714581[source]
>> The sooner you reverse this decision, the better for everyone.

Opinion -- cloaked in shame and coercion.

4. dang ◴[] No.34714839[source]
That's certainly possible! But I would need to hear an argument about why, which actually addresses the reasons I've given in my responses in this thread. So far I haven't heard that. In fact, no one seems to have even tried (maybe I missed it amid the inundation - I've been trying and failing to keep up for a couple hours now).
replies(3): >>34714990 #>>34717952 #>>34721929 #
5. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.34714990[source]
Maybe just rename to "Seymour Hersh: How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline". The unique new info is that Seymour Hersh has reported such-and-such.
replies(1): >>34715088 #
6. josephb ◴[] No.34715045[source]
If you're a supporter of someones work in general, it should be far easier to just ignore what you perceive to be a mistake or blemish, and just move on.

The soon the better you do X, is quite an authoritative stance to take.

7. dang ◴[] No.34715088{3}[source]
That information is in the domain name next to the title, which we treat as part of the title.
8. avgcorrection ◴[] No.34716166[source]
So many backseat moderators without any arguments in the replies.
9. jacquesm ◴[] No.34717952[source]
I think the argument is pretty simple: if you overrule the flags on any article that by a pretty simplistic reading of the guidelines should be flagged because (1) it is nationalistic flamebait and (2) does not present actual evidence even though the title pretends that it does by stating things as fact when they clearly are not then it is your own judgment about the veracity of the article that drives you to do so.

That judgment normally should not weigh as much as the combined judgment of the community members with flag powers. At that point you may as well disable the flags because your trust in the judgment of the community has eroded to the point of non-existence.

I think at best this should be presented with a title of 'How America could have taken out the Nord Stream pipeline' because as it is the facts are not supported by any evidence and there are some clear flaws in the article (for instance, see the comments by user 'weatherlight'). The reputation of this particular reporter was at one point in time absolutely stellar but has gone steadily downhill and I think you should update your priors as to whether you still want to stand by him when making unverifiable claims. Note that no reputable paper would put this in print, which is why you find it on substack, the place where conspiracy and controversy finds its audience.

Note also that this article essentially claims privileged knowledge about an act of war, gets a whole pile of details factually wrong and yet the main claim apparently should stand and get the benefit of the doubt, including a title that states this all as fact (those quotes and question marks are just confusing). Something that grave should not be amplified until it is presented with more foundation.

replies(1): >>34742881 #
10. consumer451 ◴[] No.34721929[source]
Hi, your job is rough sometimes, and hats off. Here is the one of the best arguments I have found here as to why the quality of this article is highly questionable:

> I know nothing of him, but given that there's an entire paragraph about Jens Stoltenberg where almost every sentence is just completely factually wrong in a way that could be verified to be wrong with a look at the first paragraph on his Wikipedia page, I'm not inclined to take what he says seriously.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34717803

This is something that could be verified quickly by you and others.

replies(2): >>34723618 #>>34752070 #
11. nkurz ◴[] No.34723618{3}[source]
Isn't this instead a great argument for why the article should be discussed here rather than banned from discussion? It's a great comment, and exactly the sort of useful criticism of the article that might actually change people's minds. If the article is hidden by flagging, these points will never be raised, and everyone stays at their initial position. But by allowing discussion, this insightful information can be shared and learning can happen. This is a good thing, right?
replies(1): >>34723726 #
12. consumer451 ◴[] No.34723726{4}[source]
If people didn't just upvote things based on the headline due to confirmation bias, and if this[0] didn't exist, then sure.

Flagging exists for a reason, doesn't it?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect

replies(1): >>34725550 #
13. nkurz ◴[] No.34725550{5}[source]
> Flagging exists for a reason, doesn't it?

Yes, but in my mind that reason is to call the moderator's attention to an article and force a conscious decision. It's not to automatically allow some tiny percentage of participants to decide what the majority are allowed to read. Probably most of the time, the flaggers are right, discussion would be unproductive, and the article should be removed.

But some of the time, some of the flaggers are ideologically driven to prevent discussion that will damage their ideology. The moderator's goal should be to distinguish these cases. Making it tricky, it's not always a binary whether an article is worthy of discussion or not. Sometimes a good discussion can be created if and only if the moderator has time to spare on guiding the discussion, and sometimes the same article is flagged for different reasons.

A good discussion on a bad article is a great outcome, and bad discussion on a good article is a poor outcome. The "illusory truth effect" is a danger, but failing to properly challenge a false narrative is a danger too. I feel like Dan usually does a good job of trying to weigh these factors, based on the amount of time he is willing to spend babysitting the thread to avoid the worst outcomes, and based on his intuition on what sort of discussion will result.

14. fulafel ◴[] No.34742881{3}[source]
In what way is it nationalistic? Doesn't seem that way to me.
15. redbar0n ◴[] No.34752070{3}[source]
> "Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg ... He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War."

During the Vietnam War (1955-1975) Stoltenberg (born 1959) was -4 to 16 years old..

Hersh possibly confused Jens with his father Thorvald Stoltenberg. Who travelled to North-Vietnam in 1970 to negotiate between them and USA, and who was commended for his negotiating skills by the am. intel community in a declassified rapport from 1980.

Links/sources follow:

«Thorvald Stoltenberg and Reiulf Steen visited Hanoi in 1970.»

https://vietnamkrigen-wordpress-com.translate.goog/2010/02/2...

«In a new biography of Thorvald Stoltenberg, it is described how Norway brokered peace between the parties in the Vietnam War at the end of the 1960s.»

https://www-vg-no.translate.goog/nyheter/innenriks/i/Pk947/n...

«Defense Minister Thorvald Stoltenberg was praised for his negotiating skills in a so far classified CIA report from 1980.«

https://www-nettavisen-no.translate.goog/nyheter/cia-vurdert...