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1345 points philosopher1234 | 43 comments | | HN request time: 0.003s | source | bottom
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bogwog ◴[] No.34629739[source]
Played this for a bit but ran into some trouble with the key mappings. CTRL to crouch means that I can't really press anything else without causing firefox to ruin the game.

* CTRL+R (reload) causes the page to refresh

* CTRL+W (walk forward) attempts to close the current tab

* CTRL+S (walk backward) opens a dialog to save the current page

* CTRL+D (walk right) bookmarks the current page

Luckily firefox shows a confirmation dialog before refresh or closing the tab, but that causes the game to freeze until you dismiss it.

Also sound didn't work at all

replies(7): >>34629849 #>>34629850 #>>34630456 #>>34631093 #>>34631578 #>>34631651 #>>34632122 #
1. rollcat ◴[] No.34631651[source]
Say what you like about Apple, but having all these functions on the Cmd key instead is not just more logical, it's actually sane (doubly so for the terminal). I think MS has missed an enormous opportunity when they introduced the Win key; and X11 desktops, toolkits, and apps imitated the more familiar (rather than the better) solutions.
replies(7): >>34631818 #>>34631866 #>>34631915 #>>34632148 #>>34632317 #>>34634369 #>>34635100 #
2. arcanemachiner ◴[] No.34631818[source]
I will concede that for once, Apple's insane keyboard mappings actually work in their favor.

But I still won't get them any credit, since it is purely a coincidence that their mappings happened not to mess with this one browser game.

replies(6): >>34631874 #>>34631965 #>>34633597 #>>34634199 #>>34634480 #>>34635180 #
3. outworlder ◴[] No.34631866[source]
One thousand times this. Even though there are exceptions, it makes for a far better experience. Even as I am writing this: control+A is Emacs-like keybindings, goes to the beginning of the line. Under Windows and even Linux, depending on the app it's probably going to run "select all", and we have to resort to home and end (but then these also have a chance of scrolling stuff).

It's good to know that "command" will run commands. Easier to explain to new users too.

The Windows key is indeed a missed opportunity. The main reason the opportunity was missed is likely to be because Microsoft did not control the hardware. Even after Windows 95 was introduced, many keyboards continued to lack the Windows key for quite a while. How do you deal with that? Not allowing apps to run? Having a fallback for when there isn't a windows key? Now the interface is inconsistent.

replies(1): >>34632262 #
4. outworlder ◴[] No.34631874[source]
> it is purely a coincidence that their mappings happened not to mess with this one browser game.

Not really a coincidence and that's not the only scenario where it's preferable to have a dedicated command key

replies(2): >>34633404 #>>34638810 #
5. chungy ◴[] No.34631915[source]
Can't speak for Windows, but GNOME and KDE heavily use the window key by default for DE and window management functions. Applications are pretty free to use control and alt keys to their heart's desire (they're free to use the window key too, but if the DE/WM captures a particular hot key, it won't work... it's not often that applications try to actually use it).
replies(1): >>34638862 #
6. victorbstan ◴[] No.34631965[source]
What’s insane about a standardized key mapping that is predictable across apps and works? On windows you can never be sure what any key combo will do from app to app.
replies(1): >>34638488 #
7. peoplefromibiza ◴[] No.34632148[source]
the point of the CTRL key is to send CONTROL messages

anyway, this is just a coincidence, CS was a Windows only exclusive-full-screen game where those combinations had no possible conflict

no one thought we would be playing CS in a browser in the future

on Macs the CMD key is simply a poor man's CTRL key, except when you are in a terminal, where you have to use CTRL again...

doesn't sound so well thought.

replies(1): >>34633072 #
8. peoplefromibiza ◴[] No.34632262[source]
> Under Windows and even Linux, depending on the app it's probably going to run "select all"

that's CUA. Which is a much nicer and saner standard than Emacs/Vi keybindings.

replies(1): >>34634272 #
9. skunkworker ◴[] No.34632317[source]
Personally thumb + C and thumb + V on apple keyboards always felt a lot easier than pinky finger + C and pinky finger + V which just felt and still feels weird.
replies(1): >>34632863 #
10. zerd ◴[] No.34632863[source]
Cmd+Shift+T is fine to hold to re-open a tab, but Ctrl+Shift+T makes my hands hurt on a regular keyboard. It's also annoying to have to switch between Ctrl+C to copy in normal apps, but in a terminal that would cancel the command, so you have to do Ctrl+Shift+C there. On a mac keyboard it's always the same. I've tried to use e.g. autohotkey to get the same consistency but it's rather annoying (need to inspect which window is active, sometimes doesn't work).
11. rollcat ◴[] No.34633072[source]
> on Macs the CMD key is simply a poor man's CTRL key, except when you are in a terminal, where you have to use CTRL again...

Let me check.

Cmd-F in Notes.app, finds things in the current note.

Cmd-F in Terminal.app, finds things in the current terminal session's history.

Cmd-C in Calendar.app, copies an event.

Cmd-C in Terminal.app, copies the selected text.

Cmd-T in Finder.app, opens a tab.

Cmd-T in Terminal.app, opens a tab.

Cmd-W closes the current window/tab. Cmd-Q quits the app. Cmd-S saves. And so on, in any app, tracing back to 1984 or so.

Whereas Ctrl-C, Ctrl-T, Ctrl-F, Ctrl-S, on Windows/Linux... all do wildly different things, depending whether you are in an xterm, cmd.exe, a game, Emacs, or some other app.

You know what else? Ctrl-C in Terminal.app does the same thing as Ctrl-C in an xterm. This sort of thing is consistent in every app. You're literally having your cake and eating it too.

Windows couldn't use Ctrl-W to mean "close the current tab" in every single application, because - indeed, in a game, holding down Ctrl could mean crouch/sneak, and W to move forward. Windows could've chosen to use Win-W for that, but ignored the opportunity.

> anyway, this is just a coincidence

One of these patterns visible here is deliberate design, the other is piled up coincidences. I don't think it's that easy to confuse one for the other?

replies(1): >>34638988 #
12. jml7c5 ◴[] No.34633404{3}[source]
It is a sort of coincidence that Apple decided the pinky finger button should be control rather than command. The other way around and crouch-jumping would be more difficult and you'd want to rebind it... but you would then run into the same keybind overlap issue as experienced on Windows/Linux.
13. bobbylarrybobby ◴[] No.34633597[source]
It's a whole extra button, how is it a coincidence. (Yes windows has the windows button but it isn't a modifier in the same way.)
14. LordDragonfang ◴[] No.34634199[source]
The control key was designed with the intent of subtracting 0x60 (or 0x40 if you assume the base state is caps) from a character code to send a control code. It's not some coincidence that "ctrl-c" sends an interrupt on the console, if you take a look at any ascii table[1] you can see it was designed that way.

Repurposing that key to instead perform unrelated arbitrary commands is the insane move, and it only seems normal because you grew up using Windows and never thought to question it.

Apple's mappings make much more sense, especially with both OSs having a Meta key.

[1] https://www.asciitable.com/

15. spudlyo ◴[] No.34634272{3}[source]
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I love that macOS uses the command key for traditional CUA bindings, leaving control sequences open for me to continue using my Emacs style keybindings in all cocoa text widgets.
replies(1): >>34638942 #
16. l2silver ◴[] No.34634369[source]
Try zooming in without a right click button. It's fun!
replies(1): >>34634569 #
17. shepherdjerred ◴[] No.34634480[source]
It comes in handy in terminals as well. You can use CMD + C to copy, CTRL + C to send a code.
replies(1): >>34650685 #
18. dieortin ◴[] No.34634569[source]
If you don’t have a trackpad, just cmd + scroll?
replies(1): >>34635651 #
19. efxhoy ◴[] No.34635100[source]
The default keyboard layout is a big reason why I keep using macs tbh. I’ve used windows all my life and used a bunch of linux distros but the only os where my fingers are comfortable is on a mac. Swedish ISO btw.
replies(1): >>34635158 #
20. LAC-Tech ◴[] No.34635158[source]
Not trying to convert anyone, but changing keybindings is pretty easy in almost any unix window manager and/or desktop environment I've ever tried.
replies(2): >>34636032 #>>34638737 #
21. rtpg ◴[] No.34635180[source]
I mean it's an intentional design decision to avoid using ctrl for OS shortcuts. Coincidence is a bit much! (Not an Apple partisan, stopped using Macs when I couldn't open iTunes without being pitched Apple Music)
22. l2silver ◴[] No.34635651{3}[source]
and if you do have a track pad?
replies(1): >>34636012 #
23. Zagill ◴[] No.34636012{4}[source]
Are you talking about the game or in general? MacBook trackpads have pretty intuitive gestures, just pinch zoom or two-finger scroll with cmd. If you're talking about the game, I don't know of any trackpad that isn't clunky as hell to play an FPS with
24. Zagill ◴[] No.34636032{3}[source]
I haven't looked in a while but I could never find an easy way to mimic macOS's cmd/ctrl behavior in Linux. Being able to cmd+c to copy from a terminal window comes in clutch.
replies(3): >>34636611 #>>34636740 #>>34640361 #
25. LAC-Tech ◴[] No.34636611{4}[source]
Ctrl+Shift+C
replies(1): >>34637595 #
26. rileyphone ◴[] No.34636740{4}[source]
With tmux-yank this isn't a problem.
replies(1): >>34637596 #
27. Zagill ◴[] No.34637595{5}[source]
Not saying it's what's keeping me from using Linux for everything or anything, but that's a more annoying shortcut and also requires me to not accidently do the same key combo that gets used in every other application. It's nice that I can muscle-memory cmd+c on my Mac and not have to think about it when I'm using the terminal specifically
replies(1): >>34637754 #
28. Zagill ◴[] No.34637596{5}[source]
I'll check it out!
29. LAC-Tech ◴[] No.34637754{6}[source]
Ok well enjoyed getting spied on, complaining about the hardware, then forking over more and more money like all mac users seem to do.
replies(1): >>34637931 #
30. Zagill ◴[] No.34637931{7}[source]
Eh, I might complain about the hardware sometimes but it's not like I can get a Linux laptop that's anywhere near as good in terms of build quality... Well. Unless I just install Linux on my MacBook of course...
31. conradfr ◴[] No.34638488{3}[source]
As a Windows user who has to use MacOS at work there's nothing predictable about "Cmd or Ctrl?".

Habits, I guess.

32. efxhoy ◴[] No.34638737{3}[source]
Sure, it’s definitely possible. But getting a consistent layout, copy paste behavior and locale setup I like across editor, terminal, tmux, file explorer and browser in a Swedish ISO layout is a surprisingly big chore. I know a few Swedish programmers who use ANSI US keyboards and have special bindings for our Å,Ä,Ö characters.
33. account42 ◴[] No.34638810{3}[source]
It is a coincidence. The issue is commands in the game clashing with the browser, an environment it was never meant to run in. Whatever command-key you want to use for shortcuts, both applications have equal claim to wanting to use them - is is about application shortcust vs. application shortcust not OS shortcuts vs. application shortcuts. It only works out because the game was developed for a different platform than the browser, which by coincidence uses a different key for commands.
34. account42 ◴[] No.34638862[source]
Pretty sure Alt+TAB and Alt+F4 are default window management shortcuts on at least KDE.
35. peoplefromibiza ◴[] No.34638942{4}[source]
that doesn't change the fact that

  CTL+S -> CMD+S
  CTL+W -> CMD+w
  CTL+q -> CMD+q
  etc.
it's basically the same list, on a different key, which doesn't really change anything.

on Emacs it's only a matter of remapping those keys, if someone wanted to one could easily do it on every system. I've been forced to use Windows lately and thanks to Microsoft Powertoys I've remapped all the relevant keybindings to the ones I'm used to.

It took 2 minutes total.

I could have used the windows key, but why? what's the advantage? so that I could play CS online in a browser?

BTW on CS, if I remember correctly, to duck you simply press the left CTL, but in this version the key is C it is also very clearly specified in the help to use CTL only in full screen mode

so the entire thread is based on false information.

https://i.imgur.com/kIRmHXT.png

36. peoplefromibiza ◴[] No.34638988{3}[source]
> Cmd-F in Terminal.app, finds things in the current terminal session's history.

> Cmd-C in Terminal.app, copies the selected text.

you gotta love Mac users and their cultural bubble

these are non standard keybindings for a Unix shell

so if you are in every other Unix, you have to relearn them

Apple is basically crippling you and locking you in, teaching you the wrong way to do stuff.

It's like learning Italian from Mario Bros and a few stereotypes about gestures taken from American stand ups.

But people seem so happy of their ignorance nowadays that I am probably on the wrong side here.

> in a game, holding down Ctrl could mean crouch/sneak

what happens in a game stays in a game, it doesn't really matter the game has exclusive control of the inputs, they could remap every button to do everything who really cares?

When I'm in VSCode the left mouse click doesn't shoot at anything...

is it an incorrect behaviour?

replies(1): >>34639633 #
37. rollcat ◴[] No.34639633{4}[source]
> you gotta love Mac users and their cultural bubble

I've been using Windows for ~10, Linux for ~20, and Mac for 4 years. I've also worked on my own toy terminal emulator and shell. I believe that good design should be recognised for what it is, regardless of branding, and learned from to improve different aspects of the tools we build and use.

I would very much appreciate it if we could continue this conversation without assuming bias or ignorance.

> these are non standard keybindings for a Unix shell

The shell can't interpret Cmd, which is exactly my point. The terminal emulator is able to provide functionality that the shell alone can't (unless the shell takes on some part of the terminal's duties, a la tmux).

> Apple is [...] teaching you the wrong way to do stuff.

What is the correct way to copy text from a terminal then?

I just want to copy text back & forth between a terminal and a browser. I don't want to memorise two different sets of keybindings to perform the same action. I don't care if copy is Ctrl-Shift-C, or Win-CapsLock-2, I just want the key bindings to remain consistent, to reduce mental fatigue.

> When I'm in VSCode the left mouse click doesn't shoot at anything...

If I'd open Counter Strike in VS Code (100% possible, see TFA), then I would 100% expect left click to shoot.

On the other hand, I've had to rebind some of my StarCraft II hotkeys to make them work on Windows, because normally I use Alt+[F1-F4] for setting up camera hotkeys and... Alt-F4 does something special on Windows, that the game can't ignore.

replies(1): >>34643767 #
38. rollcat ◴[] No.34640361{4}[source]
https://kinto.sh/
39. peoplefromibiza ◴[] No.34643767{5}[source]
> I believe that good design should be recognised for what it is, regardless of branding

I am not at all influenced by the brand.

Windows key was a mistake too IMO (that are two BTW! one emulates the right mouse click).

ALT+space was a perfectly fine combo to press with one thumb (especially on laptop keyboards) to open a menu or the app launcher.

They add nothing to the table, it's just another modifier, they are both seriously inferior to function keys, that Mac tried so hard to remove and failed, because a touchbar sucks compared to a physical key.

Just simple plain HMI since Engelbart proved what computers could do.

> I would very much appreciate it if we could continue this conversation without assuming bias or ignorance.

Being a user and being knowledgeable of what constitute a good input interface are two different things.

If you ask people right now they will say touch screens are great, but they are wrong, physical keys are better, we have senses, if we don't use them, we are artificially making us disabled.

Which is never great.

Devices should enhance our capabilities, not cripple them.

Having to remember hundreds of arcane key combos, spread over 10 modifiers it's the exact opposite of good design.

That's why we invented CUA.

> What is the correct way to copy text from a terminal then?

if mouse is enabled

select with LEFT mouse clicked, paste with MIDDLE mouse click

otherwise

ALT+insert SHIFT+insert

that's legacy though, I agree if you are thinking it, but it's out of necessity, not out of will, that it is better to know what works everywhere.

knowing basic vi will enable you to edit text files everywhere on Unix, Emacs not really, Joe? let's hope it's Linux.

> I just want the key bindings to remain consistent, to reduce mental fatigue.

that's exactly why having CMD, CTRL, OPTION (that everybody else call ALT!) is a bad idea.

Apple is so innovative that they can't let go their original keyboard from 40 years ago.

At least back then the Apple key was the Apple logo, it had a branding purpose.

> If I'd open Counter Strike in VS Code (100% possible, see TFA), then I would 100% expect left click to shoot.

of course. because in that case you would be running CS inside VSCode.

but VSCode could disable overriding what the left click does if they wanted to.

replies(1): >>34652853 #
40. pornel ◴[] No.34650685{3}[source]
This is the primary reason why I haven't switched to Linux yet.
41. mrkstu ◴[] No.34652853{6}[source]
>At least back then the Apple key was the Apple logo, it had a branding purpose.

Command/Apple key on a Mac has always [0] been a 'clover' key symbol, origin story:[1]

[0]: https://oldcraporg.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/dsc_0201.jpeg... [1]: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...

replies(1): >>34653501 #
42. peoplefromibiza ◴[] No.34653501{7}[source]
The Apple Lisa keyboard had an Apple logo on it

https://www.freney.net/web/?14-LISA-s-restoration-the-keyboa...

this one's smaller but the Apple logo is still visible if you zoom

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Apple-li...

replies(1): >>34656047 #
43. mrkstu ◴[] No.34656047{8}[source]
Yep, but the Lisa isn't a Mac, which is the system under discussion. The Mac has the same keyboard it has always had, though the adding of the 'command' notation directly on the key is more recent.

Interestingly the Apple III was the first Apple computer with a command/Apple key, which then subsequently appeared on the IIe/IIc/IIIgs so that is the true origin.

NeXT also adopted the command key, which I'm sure was handy when it's OS was adapted into OS X.