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501 points eeemmmooo | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.229s | source

This is an update to my previous post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34189717 . Stripe has resolved the issue and everything has been released. I told the contacts at Stripe that I would do a write up about what happened from my point of view to help them understand what happened to me. I figured it would be good to do that write up publicly to help both Stripe and potential Stripe customers understand what happened and how it was resolved.

Summary: Stripe put my accounts in review for a spike in sales on Cyber Monday. Throughout the month we received very little communication from Stripe and had many support chats and calls. Keep in mind that the whole time Stripe was still accepting payments on our behalf on all of these accounts. Each of the chats/calls asked us to upload the same invoices each time for review and gave us vague information that our accounts were being reviewed. Finally out of frustration I posted on HN about my issue. Thanks to @dang for getting a Stripe employee to respond and he was finally able to resolve the issue for me.

Overall this review process was pretty bad. Very little communication and nothing I could really do directly to move things along or get any real information. It took a random Stripe employee to get an email from @dang and post on HN in order to get this issue resolved. I’m lucky because I know about HN and know that Stripe employees frequent the site, but I don’t think HN wants to become the Stripe support forum.

Stripe you can do better. We all know that in order to scale you need to automate pieces of your infrastructure and communication. But, there is a balance between automation and manual review. When someone like me gets caught up in an automated system there needs to be better ways of letting support help that person.

See my comments below for actual details and dates.

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hn_throwaway_99 ◴[] No.34233456[source]
Lots of posts here along the lines of "it's not good when you need to resort to social media shaming to get customer support", but I'll take the contrarian view, or at least explain why this dynamic exists.

The past 20 years has seen an explosion in Internet services, but a fundamental (often unspoken) quality of these services is that they must keep individualized customer support costs very low in order to be profitable. I mean, just look at Google, which has billions of end users. You can argue that Google takes in a ton of money, but it's not hard to see that if every Google user just had a single support call requiring 30 minutes of a support rep's time a year, that Google's profitability would tank (never mind the difficulty in hiring that many reps in the first place).

So all these services invest a ton into automated support and systems to ensure the vast majority of users never need support from a real human. That usually works well, except when you get some of these edge cases, and, very importantly, these edge cases are usually the worst when the customer behavior, while totally legit, "looks" pretty similar to malicious usage.

So, in that case, I'm glad that these back-channel avenues still exist when someone gets stuck in the machine. I wish there were a better alternative, but I really am at a loss to think what that could be. The social media channel essentially acts as a filter, as only things that are real problems are likely to get upvotes or lots of visibility. A trade off for users being able to get tons of value for (relatively) very cheap prices is that the "tail end" of support requests is usually pretty nightmarish.

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kcartlidge ◴[] No.34236702[source]
> I wish there were a better alternative, but I really am at a loss to think what that could be.

(This is a general comment; not directed at Stripe with whom I personally have had no dealings needing support.)

It's simple. If you can't provide useful customer service, then you can't provide a service at all. Similarly if you can't scale professionally, then in reality you can't (and shouldn't) scale at all.

Tech scales, and customer bases scale, but the real world doesn't scale with it. Professionals with morals, and standards, and pride in what they do, should self-limit their business to what they can realistically handle. And that includes the greedy behemoths across all of tech. If they truly cared about their customers they would accept that there is a limit to how many they can provide quality support for, and artificially restrict their own growth until they've ironed out enough issues that they can release the tap and scale a little bit more.

Of course financial imperatives beat both professionalism and pride in how the company operates, so that never happens.

There's no technical fix. There's no financial fix. There's probably no legal fix either. It needs an attitude fix.

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hn_throwaway_99 ◴[] No.34240535[source]
Your argument basically boils down to "companies shouldn't be greedy", so I'm going to have to throw it onto the "not a realistic solution" bucket. But I also don't believe the moral lines are as clear cut as you would like to make them.

The issue is that the vast majority of users receive excellent service, at a historically extremely low cost. The problems always arise at these edge cases where legitimate human behavior is often indistinguishable from malicious behavior without further information. But if a company decides to go with the solution of "we're not going to scale unless we have 100% of all these edge cases covered", that company would long be out of business from competition who is able to offer a lower priced product with better support for 99.9% of users.

This type of problem is essentially the same as classic externality issues, and after reading some of the other responses to my comment, I think the only way this can be solved is with government intervention requiring some level of responsiveness so that there is a level playing field for all companies.

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1. kcartlidge ◴[] No.34248570[source]
You're right in it not being a realistic solution. It's a shame, but I'm not naive.

Your main comment though is about requiring 100% fixes before scaling. I specifically said "until they've ironed out *enough* issues that they can release the tap and scale a little bit more" which is not the same thing, so I'm not actually advocating what is implied. I suspect I'm closer to what you yourself are saying in that argument than perhaps I made clear (sorry).

With that said, I see all this as part of a larger problem. The examples of YouTube, Twitter, or Facebook come to mind. They are terrible at moderation, and the reason is that the default approach is to automate these aspects due to the scale involved.

And I think that's wrong for the same reason as my original comment - if you cannot moderate at scale you shouldn't scale. The annoying thing is that they can moderate at scale, but to do that they would need to employ more humans. Which they won't do.

An awful lot of what is wrong in tech is down to the willingness to scale purely by automation and not with humans, consequences be damned.

Again, though, I'm not naive about the chances of it ever being otherwise.