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2827 points xd | 17 comments | | HN request time: 1.011s | source | bottom
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saberience ◴[] No.32769157[source]
It's weird, I've never considered myself a "royalist" but this news has affected me quite strongly. I just burst into tears unexpectedly on hearing this news and I don't quite understand why I feel so very sad. I guess I have grown up and lived my whole life (as a Brit) seeing and hearing the Queen, singing "God save the Queen" etc, and this news made me suddenly feel very old, very nostalgic, with the sense that all things pass in time, which makes my heart ache deeply.
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1. m000 ◴[] No.32769632[source]
Just reflect when we (as outsiders) were astonished by North Koreans mourning Kim Jong-Il.
replies(1): >>32770453 #
2. the_third_wave ◴[] No.32770453[source]
There is just that thing with those prison camps littering North Korea, the recurring famines, the fact that the Kim dynasty claims god-like status and more... so no, this is not a good comparison even though we of course do not really know how much of all this is known to the North-Korean populace.
replies(2): >>32773849 #>>32777775 #
3. rajamaka ◴[] No.32773849[source]
All of which is negligible when compared to the atrocities imposed throughout the world by British Colonialism under the sponsorship of the British Monarchy.
replies(1): >>32775314 #
4. hackerlight ◴[] No.32775314{3}[source]
Again this is disanalogous. Kim actually perpetrates these hideous crimes to this day. The Queen inherited what you're describing and oversaw decolonisation, today largely serving as a figurehead. It'd be like blaming Hirohito's children for the crimes of Hirohito. Children don't inherit their parent's debt.

What you could blame her for is not doing more to dismantle the monarchy's non-figurehead powers from the inside. But what you're trying to do is something else entirely and rather gross.

replies(2): >>32775652 #>>32777040 #
5. Onewildgamer ◴[] No.32775652{4}[source]
I agree only on the point that she doesn't inherit the wrong deeds, nothing on her personally.

But the place she sits, is from the blood of millions who were enslaved, robbed and were dealt with a rather inhuman treatment to say the least. In the process empire also justified what they did was in the past and cautiously moved away from that without an inch of guilt. It is sad to see people in India/Pakistan/SriLanka mourn for her death, a pity case of Stockholm syndrome.

If as you say, she has done good in her life, she should have relinquished the power, disowned the wealth which was directly a result of the horrific colonialism and imperialism. Or at least have some decency and apologise, give back the stolen wealth as a good gesture. Now I wonder, if she would have given up imperialism out of her own volition if she was in power during that period. I am inclining towards No.. it was convenient she didn't have to oversee those horrors.

It has been more than 70 years and even now, they hold their crown so precious adorned with the Diamonds taken away forcefully from our lands. What an absolute shame!

There are unheard horrors from the colonial countries, which will ache even the stone hearted. Bringing all this in perspective, we don't think she's Kim, but we have the same respect or the lack of it for anyone in their legacy.

replies(3): >>32775672 #>>32775708 #>>32777917 #
6. tarunmuvvala ◴[] No.32775672{5}[source]
The biggest hypocrisy is that in realm of modern era, do the monarchs have role to play? UK must move on from monarchy and become republic.

The commonwealth nation should also do that. It time for the UK to move into a new era.

replies(1): >>32775924 #
7. hackerlight ◴[] No.32775708{5}[source]
> she should have relinquished the power, disowned the wealth which was directly a result of the horrific colonialism and imperialism. Or at least have some decency and apologise, give back the stolen wealth as a good gesture.

Totally fair criticism. But that's not what I've been seeing from any of the criticism until your post.

What I've been seeing has been collective filial guilt assignment. The same psychological process underlying racism and other forms of collective guilt assignment. Hatred directed to the Queen little to do with what she did or didn't do, but because of what British Imperialism did in past before she got the job. The post above ours exemplifies this.

replies(1): >>32775865 #
8. Onewildgamer ◴[] No.32775865{6}[source]
I can see that, it is not what I wish. I don't advocate or recommend any of that to my fellow men. Late Queen and the current British monarchy aren't worthy and I believe they need little of our time spent in empathy.

The hatred though is coming from unresolved hurt, which the modern British era is trying hard to forget and won't be easy until they take some sensible directions towards reparations and an honest apology at least from whomever even got to witness, including the late Queen. She had a chance to resolve or ease it in our memories. We'll remember her as someone who lived their life in power, saw the horrors their parents designed upon others and didn't even have courtesy to apologise.

So much for the British decency..

Edit: Sorry for the rant. My Grandpa and his kin suffered a lot and was in freedom struggle, it is that lasting impact. I've put it here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775488 If you're a brit, please know that I am not against you or anybody for that matter. Just the monarchy's horrific past.

replies(1): >>32776096 #
9. Onewildgamer ◴[] No.32775924{6}[source]
It should have happened in the 70s, the 80s or 90s, 2000 or 2010s. I don't think they have any plans for it, and honestly won't care about what others say like we should about them.
10. hackerlight ◴[] No.32776096{7}[source]
> Late Queen and the current British monarchy aren't worthy and I believe they need little of our time spent in empathy. > She had a chance to resolve or ease it in our memories. > Just the monarchy's horrific past. > won't be easy until they take some sensible directions towards reparations and an honest apology

All totally reasonable things to say.

> The hatred though is coming from unresolved hurt

Yeah, that's the explanation, but we shouldn't confuse that with justification.

What puts me off about the reaction I'm seeing is more abstract than the details of this particular case. It's the same feeling I have when I see casual anti-White racism, justified as legitimate only because of the existence and history of white supremacy. It's filial guilt and collective guilt put on one individual who didn't perpetrate the crimes that are the actual source of the anger. And it's the cultural normalization and even promotion of such perverse group-based moral systems that I am speaking out against.

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11. Onewildgamer ◴[] No.32776470{8}[source]
I totally agree on your point, it is an explanation and not a justification.

And I am against putting the blame on someone to feed our emotions, the hatred isn't going to serve any. This is unhealthy and what I am seeing at anti-white racism is absolutely narrow minded full of obtuse morals. I will support you and several others against such foolishness.

On a side note, this particular case is just one among many, many such happenings for over two centuries of british rule. The worst of the Black Racism and its horror history has mostly ended, and same is the case of colonial countries. But the scars run deep in both the camps, any person who has the decency and courage to come up say sorry and treat as equals would be welcomed with open arms.

12. mvc ◴[] No.32777040{4}[source]
> Children don't inherit their parent's debt

Doesn't stop them from inheriting their parents assets though.

13. severino ◴[] No.32777775[source]
> we of course do not really know how much of all this is known to the North-Korean populace

Maybe they know better than you. At the end, they live there. What you claim to know from North Korea and all that other countries from the "axis of evil" comes from TV.

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14. mvc ◴[] No.32777917{5}[source]
> In the process empire also justified what they did was in the past and cautiously moved away from that without an inch of guilt

This is especially annoying when one sees facist trolls using the misdeeds of the empire to excuse the horrible actions of their dictator of choice.

No justice, no peace indeed.

15. the_third_wave ◴[] No.32782337{3}[source]
> What you claim to know from North Korea

Not what I claim to know but what I know. The difference between these two is that I don't claim to know what I know while not actually knowing it. The things I know about North Korea may be only part of the truth but there is no doubt about me knowing these things nor a necessity for me to claim knowledge I do not possess.

> all that other countries from the "axis of evil"

Where does that come from? I did not say anything about any axis of evil.

> comes from TV

I do not even remember the last time I watched television but I know it is more that 24 years ago since I had one of those contraptions. Nope, I do not get my information from television and have not done so for a very, very long time. What I know about North Korea comes from a diverse mix of sources on the 'net, from books on the subject, from interviews with North Korean escapees and from the odd travel report from people who went there - yes, some people actually visit the place. Satellite imagery provides proof of the existence of camps where escapees said they were so I tend to believe their descriptions of live in that state more than the denials which are thrown their way.

How much did the inhabitants of the Soviet Union know about the conditions in GULAG? Those who went through the system and survived to return to society were not eager to tell the tale for fear of repercussions. It took the death of Stalin and Khrushchev's subsequent speech “On the Cult of Personality and its Consequences” at the last day of the party congress of 1956 for some of the information - but only some, and only until Brezhnev came into power - to be the subject of discussion among Soviet citizens.

> Maybe they know better than you.

Stalin was a monster but to many people in the Soviet Union he was like a god - just like the Kim dynasty in North Korea has a god-like status to many North Koreans. They don't know any better, yet. Let's hope they will get to know the truth, soon.

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16. severino ◴[] No.32785741{4}[source]
The axis of evil is just the set of countries somebody wanted you to put the focus on. That's why you are so interested in North Korea while at the same time I bet -but I may be wrong- that you have no clue, nor interest, about what happens in many other countries that do much more harm to their inhabitants, and/or to those from other countries, than NK.

Talking about Stalin, he is a very respected figure today in Russia. In fact, polls say that he is more popular than ever, and a majority of Russians think he played a positive role for their country. Although we may think he was a monster, that doesn't mean that people can't worship him. Why can't they? If some random guy starts crying for a queen that couldn't care less about him, in the case of these leaders it makes even more sense.

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17. the_third_wave ◴[] No.32792726{5}[source]
Why can't people worship Hitler? Even those who refuse to say negative things about the last president of the USA are labelled fascist by the current president... but worshipping Stalin and the Kims is beyond reproach?

No, facts are facts. Stalin was a monster, as were Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot and - in a slightly lower category - Franco, Castro and Chavez and dozens of other tin-pot dictators from all winds and all political directions. Maybe the local populace adored them but that is besides the point given what we know - what you know as well.

> what happens in many other countries that do much more harm to their inhabitants, and/or to those from other countries, than NK

Let's have some examples of those countries and in which way they do much more harm to their inhabitants than North Korea.

Now back to what started this discussion: where does Elisabeth II stand in comparison to all those mentioned crooks? As far as I know she did not personally oversee any atrocities like those of Lenin/Stalin/Hitler/Mao/Pol Pot/etc.? The British Empire does have a bloody history but so does the rest of the world. Those who were conquered by the British conquered others before them and were often conquered after the British left. The British themselves were conquered by the Romans, the Vikings, the Normans, Bretons, Flemish, and French under the Duke of Normandy. The Germans tried but failed, the Soviets would have liked to but never got that far. The Indian subcontinent was conquered by the Mughals who set up a far more bloody rule than the British did. Genghis Khan killed about 11% of the world's population. Et ce te ra, humans are a warlike species. When Elisabeth II came to the throne the British Empire was winding down, decolonisation continued under her rule until all that was left is the British Overseas Territories.