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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

(www.reuters.com)
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lapcat ◴[] No.32655071[source]
The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet Union to glasnost and perestroika.

Of course Yeltsin was a big part of the problem too.

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smsm42 ◴[] No.32658274[source]
You can't force democracy on people. US - as a state and as private persons (Soros in particular) invested a lot into trying to build up democratic institutions (at least as they understood them) in Russia. It didn't work, and in part it didn't work because Russians seemed not to value the same things Americans value. Now, I am talking in generic, in broad strokes - which is never 100% true for any society, it's always more complex. But you can identify the major tendencies and likelihood of certain ideas to win or wither.

At least significant part of Russians seems to be ok with having no free speech, no real elections and no independent judiciary or other democratic institutions - as long as they are reasonably safe, physically and economically, and the bad things only happen to those who speak up or somehow do something "wrong" (which includes demanding to have those institutions publicly). They have been living this way for decades, and they have been living in much worse way - where bad things happened to pretty much everybody, regardless of what you do - for decades before that. Looks like they developed some habits that make their society very atomized and politically inert. Couple that with significant resentment of formerly having great empire (it was nominally "Soviet", not "Russian", but everybody knew where the capital was - in Moscow, right?!) and now being forced to play by the rules they did not write - and you get the full Weimar picture, and you know where that leads. Not to the thriving democracy. I don't think any "Marshall Plan" would have helped - and Russian wouldn't accept this magnitude of intrusion anyway.

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lapcat ◴[] No.32658550[source]
> You can't force democracy on people.

The Marshall Plan was economic recovery assistance, and it went to allies as well occupied territories.

"The largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total). The next highest contributions went to France (18%)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

Russia had already implemented its own elections after the fall of the USSR. The US didn't need to force that. The point is just to support Russia in its transition, not to force it.

You speak of the Weimar Republic. The lack of a "Marshall Plan" after WWI and the harsh conditions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles were a big factor in the failure of the Weimar Republic.

> At least significant part of Russians seems to be ok with having no free speech, no real elections and no independent judiciary or other democratic institutions

This is true also in the United States...

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smsm42 ◴[] No.32665487[source]
Yes, Russia briefly had free elections. Unfortunately, this did not result in a functioning democratic society - not because of lack of resources, but because of lack of desire to resist the oligarchical clique that managed to control, subvert and ultimately destroy the democracy. That wasn't the problem of the economy - in fact, Russian economy in a better shape now than it was in the 90s - it's a societal problem.

> This is true also in the United States

Sadly, true - but hopefully, it is still possible to avoid Russia's fate. Even though many institutions - including major part of technological leadership - are leading us to the same place, where expressing dissent is virtually impossible and any political action is only possible with approval from above - ironically under the slogans of "preserving democracy" and "fighting misinformation". We're not there yet, but the road has been built and we are marching along it. What works for us is we can see where this road ends, so maybe we can find in ourselves to stop and turn back before it's too late.

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lapcat ◴[] No.32666204[source]
> Russian economy in a better shape now than it was in the 90s

It's too late, though. The 90s were a make-or-break time for democracy and freedom... and it broke. Initially there was a great deal of enthusiasm for the elimination of the Soviet Union, but ultimately democracy needs to produce results economically, and if it doesn't, then people will reject it.

> many institutions - including major part of technological leadership - are leading us to the same place

I find it amusing that we're talking about different groups. I have no love for big tech companies and would break them up, but I was actually talking about the people who want to establish a Christian theocracy in the United States, who recognize no separation of church and state, who refuse to accept the results of democratic elections, who are perfectly happy with minority rule via electoral college and gerrymandering, who refuse to even hold a vote on any Supreme Court nominee in the last year of one President's term but then ram through a Supreme Court nominee in the last year of the next President's term, who give dictatorial powers to Governors of their own party, but then take away those powers right after losing Gubernatorial elections, who have a laundry list of subjects they ban from discussion in schools via school boards and/or legislatures, etc.

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1. smsm42 ◴[] No.32668158[source]
Again, it did produce results economically - after a brief disarray period, the economical situation in Russia improved and the economical situation of average Russians universally became much better than under the USSR. Incomparably better one might say. Unfortunately, along with this improvement, there was ongoing process of consolidating power by the oligarchical clique, led by Putin, which was largely ignored by the society - in part precisely because it did not result (at least not directly) in any harm to an average citizen yet. If you don't make the waves and don't cross the wrong people, you'd be ok - you can have at least decent middle-class living, by Russian standards, and if you're lucky, maybe even a little rich (being really rich is entirely different game, which requires you to be part of the oligarchy). That's one of the reasons most of them didn't care - economical side was still good, and freedom - who needs freedom?

> I was actually talking about the people who want to establish a Christian theocracy in the United States

Ah, the imaginary theocrats. I'm not afraid of them, I must say. I am afraid of those who actively suppress debate important to society right now, right this moment. Imaginary Christian theocrats can't prohibit discussing important topics on 90% of internet platforms, can't suppress publication of vital information they think is politically inconvenient, can't fire me from my job for expressing a wrong opinion, can't force me to sign political statements as a condition of employment or getting education, can't introduce racial and gender quotas in education and employment, can't exclude people from educational opportunities for having wrong ethnic ancestry, can't reintroduce racial segregation and can't institute mandatory indoctrination programs - at least, I haven't seen them doing it anywhere yet. But I have seen other people doing just that, all over the nation. And those people I am afraid of - because they want to do this, and they can do this, and they are doing this - and much more - right now. If it ever comes to Christian theocrats doing these things - then they would be the dangerous group, but right now they're not even close.

> who refuse to accept the results of democratic elections,

Somehow the tradition of refusing to accept electoral loss only counts for the last election, not for all the elections that happened before that. Bush was accused of stealing an election for all his term (still occasionally accused now), but nobody remembers that anymore. Funny how it works.

> who are perfectly happy with minority rule via electoral college

You mean, like the one described in the founding documents of the state? It's a real shame people of the US still cling to stupid things like the US constitution. True democracy would require abandoning it of course. But only in case where it benefits the certain party - if it does not, the Constitution is sacred. Just look it up historically - if the electoral college favors party A, it's a sacred institution, if on the next election it favors party B - it's an outdated relic. But everybody is free to bloviate as they will, it's no problem. The problem starts when one of the parties tries to shut off the debate completely. And I know some very non-imaginary people working on it right now. Google just announced they'd boot any application that allows dissent (sorry, "misinformation") to be published from their platform. That scared me much more than imaginary theocrats - they don't have the thousandths of the power Google has.

> who give dictatorial powers to Governors of their own party

Er, what? Which Governor has dictatorial powers and how did they pull it off? I am not aware of any Governor that has any dictatorial powers, and US laws do not allow one to be "given" such power - of course, with the exception of when there's an "emergency" and you want to shut down the state and put everybody under house arrest. Then it's ok - but as I remember, those were not "theocrats" that did that, so we better not talk about it any more.

Unless by "dictatorial powers" you mean "he's doing something I don't like, despite being duly elected by the majority and widely supported by the population of his own state"? Then it happens all the time of course.

> have a laundry list of subjects they ban from discussion in schools via school boards

I may be ok with banning schools from discussing topics with kids that parents do not want to be discussed with their kids. Because they are kids. They are not adults yet - they may need certain measure of guardianship before they can approach adult subjects. Especially ones that can have permanent consequences. What I am very not ok with is when the same is applied to adults - without any age limit, forever, and when nobody is free to publish and discuss certain things without the approval from the Powers That Be.

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2. lapcat ◴[] No.32668775[source]
I'd love to argue with you more, but this is already getting way off topic from Gorbachev, and I can see it becoming a massively long tangent into US politics. (I probably shouldn't have taken the bait in the first place.)