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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

(www.reuters.com)
970 points homarp | 13 comments | 30 Aug 22 20:37 UTC | HN request time: 0.473s | source | bottom
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idlewords ◴[30 Aug 22 21:20 UTC] No.32655237[source]▶
Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gorbachev's greatest legacy. In 1988 you would have been hard pressed to find anyone who could imagine the mostly peaceful collapse of the Eastern Bloc, but Gorbachev had the moral courage to accept this once unimaginable consequence of his policy and to see it through.
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rixrax ◴[31 Aug 22 07:59 UTC] No.32659566[source]▶
But the dissolution of soviet union is not over yet. You can see this nowhere as clearly as in russias attack on Ukraine[0] where imperialistic russians that dream of restoring the glory and borders of soviet union[1] are waging their genocidal war. Meanwhile they are using hunger[2] and energy as their weapons against the rest of the world[3].

If the russians are not stopped in Ukraine, then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't rinse and repeat in Baltic states, Kazakhstan, Moldova, and all other now independent former russian states. Including Alaska[4], should opportunity represent itself.

To truly secure Gorbachevs place in history, world must decisively say no to the russians agressions in Ukraine, and help Ukraine deliver a humiliating defeat to the russians and the dissolution of soviet union reach it's logical conclusion by stripping russia and their dreams off of any status as military, or world power.

[0] https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26769481 [2] https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/russia/957367/russ... [3] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-en... [4] https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/03/19/does-russia-want-alas...

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danbruc ◴[31 Aug 22 10:03 UTC] No.32660279[source]▶
From your link [1].

He [Putin] became briefly close to President George W Bush - who even claimed to have glimpsed Putin's soul - until the Iraq War drove them apart. In Iraq, Putin insisted that international law must be upheld - no invasion could be allowed without approval from the United Nations Security Council, and that approval was not forthcoming.

This is also Putin and it is not singular. If you listen to his speeches, he often demands that international laws and treaties should be upheld and he became increasingly frustrated over the years that this was not done. Maybe you can argue that this was his only option out of a position of weakness, but never the less he did this.

Putin wanting to recapture and rebuild a past empire is a very new narrative without much supporting evidence over all those years.

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1. V__ ◴[31 Aug 22 10:49 UTC] No.32660534[source]▶
> he became increasingly frustrated over the years that this was not done.

This may be true, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't care about it at all. He is an opportunist, and back then the best opportunity was to criticize the U.S. and Europe by insisting on international law. Today, he is saying Europe is a fascist Nazi oppressor.

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2. dghughes ◴[31 Aug 22 11:25 UTC] No.32660770[source]▶
> He is an opportunist

And a manipulator. He's the person who gossips in the background. He tells someone that guy over there just called you a name, and then says the same to the first guy. He's the type of person we all hate.

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3. danbruc ◴[31 Aug 22 11:47 UTC] No.32660947[source]▶
I think it depends on what exactly you mean with it all. Upholding international law was most likely in his best interests, with Russia in its weak state this was probably the best option to stay relevant and have influence. If you mean that he believed that upholding international law is the right thing to do independent of Russia situation, that is something I can not say. Maybe someone who really studied Putin could make an educated guess at this.
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4. V__ ◴[31 Aug 22 12:04 UTC] No.32661079[source]▶
Sure, there are some, but calling it plenty while Putin's private paramilitary army is the Wagner Group is willfully disingenuous.
5. simonh ◴[31 Aug 22 13:11 UTC] No.32661622[source]▶
Every country has unsavoury elements within it, but attacking a country with a Jewish president for being fascist, because there are a few thousand racists in the south, is bullshit. Especially when you're at the same time busily funding and promoting fascist and racist groups all over Europe and the US, as Russia has been.
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6. squarefoot ◴[31 Aug 22 13:59 UTC] No.32662101[source]▶
Ask any psychologist with a knowledge of the military world about the number of far right militants wearing an uniform and you'll be shocked by the response. Uniforms and weapons are like sex for some people.

Extreme right wingers want to wear uniforms and carry weapons at any cost: it's the way their brain is wired that makes them so inclined to the show of strength, obsession about physical efficiency, appearing and act dominant, being combative, in constant search of enemies to fight against (including creating them if necessary); and of course that decrepit ideology, which however in many cases is not the main motivator, therefore they're not perceived as Nazis, although they're equally dangerous.

The tale about Nazis in the Ukraine army is true for pretty much every country, including mine and yours. How many soldiers or cops or paramilitary forces does your country have? Well, you can take for granted that under at least 30% of the uniforms there are Azov-like extreme right wingers. And I'm very optimistic, because according both to personal direct experience when I was in the military and speaking with someone with connections there who now teaches in police schools, the numbers are way higher, up to 70-80% in some contexts, although lots of in-betweens make the distinction quite blurred.

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7. pydry ◴[31 Aug 22 14:16 UTC] No.32662315{3}[source]▶
Zelensky asked the few thousand fascists/nazis to lay down their arms for a cease fire - in order to fulfil his primary campaign promise of ending the donbass war. They refused and called him a traitor.

Being Jewish they probably called him a few other names too.

He tacitly accepted this insubordination without a fuss, as far as I can see. These days he lavishes Azov with praise.

In which other countries does this happen?

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8. simonh ◴[31 Aug 22 14:51 UTC] No.32662776{4}[source]▶
Russia has had problems with insubordination too, with soldiers refusing to fight. Frankly I don't see how it makes any difference. None of that makes Ukraine a fascist state.

Nor does it change the fact that when it suits it's own interests, Russia promotes and funds fascists. Clearly none of this has anything to do with fascism, Russia didn't send massive columns of armoured vehicles and thousands of troops at Kyiv over Azov battalion.

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9. pydry ◴[31 Aug 22 15:39 UTC] No.32663641{5}[source]▶
Im not sure you could argue that Ukraine is overall a fascist state. Zelensky isnt secretly one of them and lord knows they werent good at winning elections when they ran either.

However, with a lot of fascists rewarded with government posts after their performance in maidan and an entire fascist batallion somehow having the independence to defy a presidential order to stand down in a war, it's pretty clear that fascists hold a significant level of power in Ukraine.

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10. simonh ◴[31 Aug 22 16:30 UTC] No.32664598{6}[source]▶
They have power over themselves and their actions, they have little or no power or real influence in the country. They're certainly not making it in any way fascist. In fact the only reason they have any standing at all is due to the Russian aggression, if the Russian's hadn't invaded Azov would be truly irrelevant.
11. Diesel555 ◴[31 Aug 22 21:35 UTC] No.32668667{3}[source]▶
> Extreme right wingers want to wear uniforms and carry weapons at any cost: it's the way their brain is wired

You lost your credibility here when you took a large group and applied a judgement on all of them based on how “their brain is wired”. Replace “extreme right wingers” in your sentence with almost any other group without evidence and you will likely not agree with your own statement.

> The tale about Nazis in the Ukraine army is true for pretty much every country, including mine and yours.

Please provide evidence to this statement and the following paragraph. You have found a hypothesis that fits your narrative. That does not make it true.

12. philistine ◴[01 Sep 22 03:27 UTC] No.32671569[source]▶
The international organization where his country happens to have a permanent seat should decide the fate of the invasion! No need for further study, this is simple politics.
13. dghughes ◴[02 Sep 22 17:42 UTC] No.32693580[source]▶
Putin I meant if that wasn't clear. Not Gorbachev.