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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

(www.reuters.com)
970 points homarp | 11 comments | 30 Aug 22 20:37 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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lapcat ◴[30 Aug 22 21:07 UTC] No.32655071[source]▶
The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet Union to glasnost and perestroika.

Of course Yeltsin was a big part of the problem too.

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karaterobot ◴[30 Aug 22 21:49 UTC] No.32655593[source]▶
Your comment makes it sounds like you believe the U.S. had the power to decide whether or not Russia would turn into a kleptocracy or not. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but if I'm not, I'm skeptical. Marshall plan notwithstanding, I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. Likewise, the people of Russia and their government are ultimately the ones with agency in their case. I don't think the U.S. should take on the burden of developing other countries; going down that road has been a bad idea more often than not.
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DubiousPusher ◴[30 Aug 22 22:30 UTC] No.32655984[source]▶
> I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening.

I suggest you read more about the post war occupation of Japan. The U.S. put its thumb heavily on the scale forcing Japan to accept democratization throughout. Unusual for the U.S. this included pushing economic democracy by supporting Japan's very successful land redistribution scheme.

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MichaelCollins ◴[30 Aug 22 22:40 UTC] No.32656078[source]▶
> The U.S. put its thumb heavily on the scale

More than a thumb. The Constitution of Japan was written by Americans. America stomped on the scale, and that time it seems to have worked.

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1. agumonkey ◴[30 Aug 22 22:51 UTC] No.32656183{3}[source]▶
isn't it cultural ? japanese seems to be ok struggling under american control and keep reaching higher. People say US money made Japan thrive but so many time throwing money at a large problem fails.. I think the population was just more mentally compatible.

Or maybe the post soviet Russia was dealt a bad hand. Hard to know (just like here, you can find infinite streams of contradictory arguments)

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2. MichaelCollins ◴[30 Aug 22 22:58 UTC] No.32656256[source]▶
Hard to say. I suspect the horrific bombing of Japanese cities probably had something to do with their willingness to submit. Leaving their Emperor intact as a figurehead probably helped a lot. Perhaps American willingness to help Japan rebuild immediately after such a bitter war also played a role.

There were probably innumerable factors that went into it. But there are a lot of differences between that situation and the fall of the Soviet Union.

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3. bigcat12345678 ◴[30 Aug 22 23:06 UTC] No.32656329[source]▶
> isn't it cultural ?

On the one hand, in the scale of brutality, every nation in history is at least 1 level below the Imperial Japan in WWII.

On the other hand, after the decisive show of force, beaconed by the nuclear bomb, Japan realized that brutality is going to cause the doom of that nation. So they naturally bowed down. After that brutality is no longer necessary, like a beaten dog that would not really need a leash.

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4. AnimalMuppet ◴[30 Aug 22 23:43 UTC] No.32656596[source]▶
Chief among them is, the US did not conquer or occupy the USSR. We had definite say in Japan (and West Germany). We didn't in the USSR.
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5. throwaway0a5e ◴[30 Aug 22 23:51 UTC] No.32656647[source]▶
WW2 was the culmination of Japan's semi-conscious effort to speed run the transition from feudal backwater to first rate world power. Considering all the stuff they had pulled off up until that point and that they exited WW2 with their national identity and power structures intact I don't think it's that surprising that they pulled off the transition from imperial government to constitutional democracy with an imperial figurehead.
6. DubiousPusher ◴[31 Aug 22 00:01 UTC] No.32656730{3}[source]▶
That's a good point. America had some influence and backed Yeltsin to the hilt but he outflanked Gorbachev in the end and I'm not sure if that could've been changed.
7. fomine3 ◴[31 Aug 22 00:29 UTC] No.32656901[source]▶
Korean war is a big reason why Japanese industries revived, and the US don't want let Japan poor
8. agumonkey ◴[31 Aug 22 03:45 UTC] No.32658143[source]▶
It's one way to see that. But after such brutal events it's easy for a people to fall into despair or hate but Japan bounce back better than a lot of country. They rapidly absorbed and mastered electronics better than a lot of country. I always find it rare.
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9. ◴[31 Aug 22 03:47 UTC] No.32658157[source]▶
10. bigcat12345678 ◴[31 Aug 22 04:14 UTC] No.32658301{3}[source]▶
That part thanks to confuscious tradition

Look at China, Confucius is the God of Asia....

11. MichaelCollins ◴[31 Aug 22 17:51 UTC] No.32665835{3}[source]▶
> They rapidly absorbed and mastered electronics better than a lot of country.

I believe this is something they started doing before/during the war. Specifically I've heard that they started reverse engineering and producing copies of allied radio equipment during the war.