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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

(www.reuters.com)
970 points homarp | 10 comments | 30 Aug 22 20:37 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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lapcat ◴[30 Aug 22 21:07 UTC] No.32655071[source]▶
The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet Union to glasnost and perestroika.

Of course Yeltsin was a big part of the problem too.

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duxup ◴[30 Aug 22 21:18 UTC] No.32655216[source]▶
The locals in power have to want to do it too. As soon as enough don’t want it, it is over.

I’m skeptical of the idea that you can impose Democracy.

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hnhg ◴[30 Aug 22 21:47 UTC] No.32655579[source]▶
You couldn’t impose democracy on many parts of the USA if it were suddenly removed, let’s face it.
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ghostwriter ◴[30 Aug 22 21:51 UTC] No.32655635[source]▶
that's good, as the US is a constitutional republic
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ZoomerCretin ◴[30 Aug 22 21:59 UTC] No.32655714[source]▶
Democratic republic, which is what everyone means when we say democracy.
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ghostwriter ◴[30 Aug 22 22:18 UTC] No.32655881[source]▶
Hardly everyone, but left zoomers who are unable to understand the key founding papers and who refuse descriptive comments of the founders on the matter most certainly do. [1]: "While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitution which is the supreme law of the United States. The Constitution not only provides the framework for how the federal and state governments are structured, but also places significant limits on their powers. “Federal” means that there is both a national government and governments of the 50 states. A “republic” is a form of government in which the people hold power, but elect representatives to exercise that power."

Federalist No_14 also had a lot to say on the matter: “In a democracy, the people meet and exercise the government in person; in a republic, they assemble and administer it by their representatives and agents. A democracy, consequently, will be confined to a small spot. A republic may be extended over a large region.”

[1] https://ar.usembassy.gov/education-culture/irc/u-s-governmen...

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1. pedrosorio ◴[30 Aug 22 22:36 UTC] No.32656035[source]▶
> Hardly everyone, but left zoomers

I am not a zoomer and I agree with the commenter you are replying to. Most of the "west" has a form of government that is a representative democracy (most of them as republics, but quite a few as constitutional monarchies as well), including the US.

Most people would not waste their time nitpicking the usage of such a widely accepted term.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200215230538/https://ourworldi...

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2. ghostwriter ◴[30 Aug 22 22:38 UTC] No.32656061[source]▶
> Most people would not waste their time nitpicking the usage of such a widely accepted term.

For some reason the US embassy still finds it important enough to broadcast the difference to the rest of the world: https://ar.usembassy.gov/education-culture/irc/u-s-governmen... Could you explain that?

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3. andrekandre ◴[30 Aug 22 22:56 UTC] No.32656226[source]▶
i think you are being a bit pedantic, it says:

  While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic.
notice the wording "more accurately" and not "mischaracterized" etc

--

btw... whats the point in arguing the u.s isn't a democracy?

are you trying to say that people shouldn't be able to decide their leaders?

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4. ghostwriter ◴[30 Aug 22 23:14 UTC] No.32656399{3}[source]▶
it's the US embassy being very pedantic about the matter to the extent they find it important to dedicate the starting paragraph of the entire section about the US government, even though the difference is just about being more accurate. in fact, accuracy in founding principles of governing is as important as accuracy of long-distance ballistic motion planning.

> btw... whats the point in arguing the u.s isn't a democracy?

because a typical follow-up discussion usually starts with "so where's the popular vote?" and this diminishes the principle of fair representation of smaller states of the federal republic.

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5. nl ◴[31 Aug 22 00:40 UTC] No.32656975{4}[source]▶
> because a typical follow-up discussion usually starts with "so where's the popular vote?" and this diminishes the principle of fair representation of smaller states of the federal republic.

Oh wow, so that's why this is seen as a left/right thing?

I'm not from the US (and therefore way left for the US) and I think assuring representation of the less populous states is very important.

I think the first-past-the-post voting system used in the US is a much bigger problem than this.

6. indymike ◴[31 Aug 22 01:16 UTC] No.32657215{3}[source]▶
> i think you are being a bit pedantic

This is the PolySci equivalent of software engineers arguing about the type system in Python. It is a great source of debate and endless clarification... and term papers for undergrads.

7. guelo ◴[31 Aug 22 02:23 UTC] No.32657637{4}[source]▶
My guess is some MAGA types in the Argentinan embassy.
8. andrekandre ◴[31 Aug 22 02:42 UTC] No.32657742{4}[source]▶

  > because a typical follow-up discussion usually starts with "so where's the popular vote?" and this diminishes the principle of fair representation of smaller states of the federal republic.
thanks for clarifying.

just to be upfront, im not sure i agree, but in any case i think stating that upfront is better than debating words "democracy" vs "republic", people will miss the point (or not get what your trying to say)

9. selimthegrim ◴[31 Aug 22 02:49 UTC] No.32657798{4}[source]▶
You need to go back and read about Doerr’s Rebellion and the Guarantee Clause.
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10. selimthegrim ◴[31 Aug 22 13:33 UTC] No.32661854{5}[source]▶
Dorr Rebellion my mistake.