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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

(www.reuters.com)
970 points homarp | 4 comments | 30 Aug 22 20:37 UTC | HN request time: 0.874s | source
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nradov ◴[30 Aug 22 21:39 UTC] No.32655496[source]▶
For those unfamiliar with what happened in Lithuania, in 1991 Gorbachev used military force to kill 14 Lithuanian civilians who were demonstrating for democratic reforms.

https://www.rferl.org/a/lithuania-soviet-crackdown-1991-krem...

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pastacacioepepe ◴[30 Aug 22 22:02 UTC] No.32655751[source]▶
> who were demonstrating for democratic reforms.

You seem to comment to better inform readers, yet your comment distorts the truth.

Even the article you linked talks about Lithuania declaring independence from the USSR, not asking for democratic reforms.

Despite what your article says, if you read the story on Wikipedia, Lithuania did in fact unilaterally declare independence from the USSR in March 1990.

Just as an example, check what Spain did in 2017 when Catalonia tried to declare independence after a popular vote. If Catalonians decided to resist, there is no doubt that the Spanish state would have used violence to suppress them. Try to imagine what the USA would do if any of its states tried to declare independence.

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1. saalweachter ◴[30 Aug 22 22:20 UTC] No.32655894[source]▶
Interestingly, South Carolina declared its independence December 20, 1860, and the US Civil War didn't begin until April 12, 1861, when the Confederate Army attacked Fort Sumter.

It's an intriguing historical question what would have happened if Fort Sumter hadn't been attacked. Would the Union have eventually made the first move? Would peaceful negotiations have eventually resulted in some stronger guarantee in the continuance of slavery and an end to secession? Would the Union have eventually dissolved amicably?

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2. twright ◴[30 Aug 22 22:49 UTC] No.32656163[source]▶
I’m not sure your specific speculation is on the list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_alternate_h...
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3. Dracophoenix ◴[30 Aug 22 22:55 UTC] No.32656217[source]▶
> It's an intriguing historical question what would have happened if Fort Sumter hadn't been attacked. Would the Union have eventually made the first move?

Going by what happened during the Nullification Crisis, the answer is likely a "Yes".

4. saalweachter ◴[30 Aug 22 23:00 UTC] No.32656274[source]▶
Wargaming political negotiations is far less popular than wargaming, well, wars.

You might be able to have a little fun with the first option -- the Union attacks first -- but it's still going to largely end up political questions:

1. If the Union attacked immediately after South Carolina seceded, how would it have changed which States would follow suit?

2. If the Union attacked in 1862, would more States have seceded by then?

3. Would the Union have lost any supporters -- either notable generals or even member States -- if it had fired first?

After those political questions are answered you could have fun wargaming out the subsequent war with new sides, but trying to answer the political questions is not as easy or fun.