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207 points jimhi | 7 comments | | HN request time: 1.527s | source | bottom
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germandiago ◴[] No.29829418[source]
This is the sad truth of places like Cuba or North Korea. Everything is forbidden to the point that eating is difficult. So people get corrupted and the guards, etc. just want their part.

None of those things should be illegal. It is really annoying to see how a leader class kills people of hunger and make everything illegal so that now everyone is a criminal for trying to survive.

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FredPret ◴[] No.29829520[source]
Communism is taxes and government regulation gone mad
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thechao ◴[] No.29829740[source]
Communism is the ownership of the means of production by the workers. You're talking about about an out-of-control regulatory state; maybe one with an authoritarian bent?
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x3iv130f ◴[] No.29830352[source]
Your definition is the correct one for what Communism strives to be. A communal ownership of things.

It's unfortunate that such a sensible idea only becomes justification for kleptocratic oligarchies which is what the other poster was going on about.

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fallingknife ◴[] No.29830688[source]
It's not unfortunate, it's built in. "Communal ownership" requires that you can't freely buy and sell things. A government powerful enough to enforce that is necessarily totalitarian.
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beaconstudios ◴[] No.29831329[source]
Or, it requires a community that shares things - like tribes or... Communes. I don't engage in negotiations with my wife or my friends, we cooperate. Maybe I could cooperate with other workers and form some kind of... Cooperative. There's a reason "socialism" starts with "social".
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1. lobocinza ◴[] No.29833137[source]
> Maybe I could cooperate with other workers and form some kind of... Cooperative.

Free markets allow people to organize the way they like. Other systems don't.

Cooperatives are cool and I have nothing against them but there's a reason for them being so few. They go bankrupt more often than other business.

> I don't engage in negotiations with my wife or my friends, we cooperate

Me neither but trust isn't scalable. On a large ethnically and culturally diverse population it's impossible to have trust.

It's good to have choice. Engaging in negotiations can be boring but it's preferred over the tragedy of the commons or attempts social control that always end up being an euphemism for privileges for friends or authoritarian policy.

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2. beaconstudios ◴[] No.29833285[source]
> Free markets allow people to organize the way they like. Other systems don't.

Free markets are not absolute freedom, and private property still restricts the action of people without money. Poor people can barely do anything because they're too busy trying not to become homeless. The wealthy, on the other hand, can do what they want. That's not a very free system. More free than some Soviet dictatorship, 100%, but I like to think that we can do better. Plenty of coercion occurs under the banner of free market trade - just look at rare metal extraction in Africa, that powers our electronic devices.

> Cooperatives are cool and I have nothing against them but there's a reason for them being so few. They go bankrupt more often than other business.

They actually don't, they have greater staying power than corporations [1]. There's not many because investors don't want to invest in them due to the nature of their structure, and workers don't typically have the resources to fund their own business. Plus, they're a pretty niche concept, many people haven't heard of them. So once again, people can't organise the way they like because the way people can organise in the market is controlled by capital.

> Me neither but trust isn't scalable. On a large ethnically and culturally diverse population it's impossible to have trust.

That's a pretty weird thing to say. I hadn't even brought up race. I grew up going to a racially diverse school, had friends of various backgrounds, many of my neighbours and people I've worked with have been of different backgrounds, no issue. Maybe that's just you that doesn't trust people of other backgrounds.

> It's good to have choice. Engaging in negotiations can be boring but it's preferred over the tragedy of the commons or attempts social control that always end up being an euphemism for privileges for friends or authoritarian policy.

Do you not think that the ultra-wealthy are engaging in privileges for friends or authoritarian policy? They write the laws you must obey!

Any system where the primary incentive is in opposition to moral value is less than ideal. If I am incentivised by the profit motive to withhold resources to the needy (see for example: US medical industry, the military-industrial complex withholding "being alive" to foreign citizens) then that's not a particularly moral system because the people least affected by morality will rise to the top.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative#Longevity_a...

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3. int_19h ◴[] No.29834782[source]
Free markets are orthogonal to shared or non-shared ownership of capital; you can have one without the other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_anarchism
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4. beaconstudios ◴[] No.29838449{3}[source]
That's true, if everyone is willing to use labour cost as the limit of price - otherwise profit would recreate the system of capital domination. It seems like a hard bargain to maintain if a currency substitute like labour vouchers are used.
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5. int_19h ◴[] No.29841299{4}[source]
It can only happen if unlimited concentration of capital is possible in the first place. In property right systems based on use (i.e. where society refuses to protect other property claims), this is not the case.
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6. beaconstudios ◴[] No.29841441{5}[source]
I understand that, but I believe that a market based system allows a capitalist system to be bootstrapped from within anarchy. If I'm able to trade for profit within the market, say in a voucher system, I can use those vouchers to purchase security from other less ideological people and bootstrap the coercive relationship between profit and violence. Maybe free market anarchists have an answer to this, but I'd hope that a revolutionary society could do better than repeating the inhumane parts of capitalism that originate from the market and could recreate it wholesale.
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7. int_19h ◴[] No.29859777{6}[source]
Note that freed-market anarchism is just one end of the more broader free-market left libertarian spectrum, which does not intrinsically preclude governments and law enforcement.

With that in mind, consider what would happen today if you were to claim some random empty house as your own, posted a sign to that effect outside, and started to shoot any "trespassers". That would be murder - and the law would come down on you. Same thing would happen in this hypothetical society if someone tried to do what you describe.

(The issue of how a fully anarchist society would deal with murder in the first place is a separate and complicated one. I can't really speak for them; my own take is that anarchism is a kind of political asymptote - an unachievable utopia that the realistically-possible ideal society would trend towards as its cultural underpinnings evolve to make it more viable. In this day and age, something like Bookchin's libertarian municipalism appears to be empirically viable.)