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    Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

    (femfosec.com)
    1005 points femfosec | 11 comments | 28 Mar 21 18:37 UTC | HN request time: 1.345s | source | bottom
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    kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj ◴[28 Mar 21 20:32 UTC] No.26614205[source]▶
    I had an experience at work where a coworker (who is black) shared his experience of being told to "stay in his lane" early on in his career. The insinuation was of course racism, he didn't mention it but it was obvious. Then I and someone else (who are white) shared our exact same experiences.

    He told me he felt cut off, etc, even though we were sharing the same experience. If we had something similar happen, how can he definitively attribute that experience to racism? Even if it was, that was not the point of the conversation. We were all sharing our experiences on that topic and no one mentioned race. Why do we need to bend ourselves backwards to make sure all minorities feel comfortable all the time?

    The point here is you can't talk to minority groups about anything these days, if you are white.

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    1. uyt ◴[29 Mar 21 00:17 UTC] No.26616293[source]▶
    I was discussing programming puzzles with a new group of colleagues. The way these discussions typically go is that after most of us solve it, they will start giving hints/spoilers to others to keep the conversation flowing.

    So I did this as usual and offered a hint to the last person (who was a woman) to not see the trick this time. It surprised me when she looked visibly upset and asked me why I was explaining it to her. I'm guessing this is because of her own insecurities that she was worried that I thought she was too dumb to solve it on her own otherwise. Up until this point her gender was irrelevant to me. I only explain stuff because the value of discussing interview problems is to get practice solving and explaining stuff to each other. But now I have to question whether I was "mansplaining" or not.

    This minor event bothered me so much I never talked to her about programming puzzles ever again.

    replies(2): >>26616450 #>>26616703 #
    2. JMTQp8lwXL ◴[29 Mar 21 00:40 UTC] No.26616450[source]▶
    Can insecurity be ascribed to gender? If it was a man, and they got offended, could we say it's also because he was insecure about not finishing in time? I think it's difficult to say gender as the de facto reason here. I'm not ruling it out, but I don't think it can be labeled a certainty, either.
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    3. quiescant_dodo ◴[29 Mar 21 01:20 UTC] No.26616703[source]▶
    > This minor event bothered me so much I never talked to her about programming puzzles ever again.

    This makes me sad, but it is exactly what I would have done. My life is built on avoiding anything awkward or uncomfortable. And...that's not working for me anymore. Thanks to a mental health professional, I'm working on embracing these "problems".

    If I had your experience today, I'd come up with a plan to at least clarify things. I'd probably start with a slack message. Maybe something like:

    > I'm sorry.

    > When I talk programming puzzles with <person>, we have a routine of the first person to solve waits a short while and then shares the answer.

    > I like that system, as spending 45 minutes to come up with the "trick" usually isn't fun for me.

    And then see how the conversation goes. I'd expect 70% something with the feeling of apology-accepted, 20% being told that mansplaining is a pattern of mine, 5% things getting very personal/real/vulnerable, and 5% wildcard. Maybe the estimates are wildly off. I'm still new to being honest and real. But today-me looks at those odds and says sum of awkward + fear isn't high enough to beat the expected value of the conversation.

    replies(1): >>26617342 #
    4. rattray ◴[29 Mar 21 02:28 UTC] No.26617097[source]▶
    > If it was a man, and they got offended, could we say it's also because he was insecure about not finishing in time?

    Yes, absolutely. Men do that all the time.

    5. noisy_boy ◴[29 Mar 21 03:01 UTC] No.26617264[source]▶
    If it was a man, atleast it won't be about mansplaining - could be insecurity, frustration, personal dislike or such factors. In case of a woman, all of the above + mansplaining comes into play and the last one is a slippery slope to being labelled a sexist which is just too much risk to take.
    6. anm89 ◴[29 Mar 21 03:14 UTC] No.26617342[source]▶
    Why start with an apology when you've done nothing wrong? This only exacerbates the problem.
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    7. I_Byte ◴[29 Mar 21 04:04 UTC] No.26617611{3}[source]▶
    > This only exacerbates the problem.

    I personally haven’t found this to be the case. I’ve often found that starting out with an apology leads the offended to be much more receptive to what you have to say next. Best case scenario the person you are apologizing too isn’t offended at all and tells you so. Worst case scenario the offended uses your apology as justification that a wrong was committed in the first place. Thankfully I have only ever encountered either the former or people somewhere in the middle.

    8. quiescant_dodo ◴[29 Mar 21 05:29 UTC] No.26617995{3}[source]▶
    Opening up with "I'm sorry" sets a tone for the conversation. If my last interaction with someone was a little tense, I need to _reset_ the emotional balance before moving forward.

    In this hypothetical, I don't believe I did anything explicitly wrong. But I also didn't handle the situation well. Maybe the "sorry" is "sorry for not addressing your concern". Or maybe it's just "sorry that 'mansplaining' is a situation you encounter frequently". It doesn't have to be BLAME. Just empathy.

    9. krageon ◴[29 Mar 21 10:47 UTC] No.26619805{3}[source]▶
    > Why start with an apology

    All an apology costs you is pride, which is basically free. If it gets you to a place where you can have a normal conversation, who cares who has done what wrong? The point of talking things out isn't about assigning blame.

    replies(1): >>26623866 #
    10. anm89 ◴[29 Mar 21 16:05 UTC] No.26623866{4}[source]▶
    I generally agree with this but when the issue is the person assuming they are a victim I think there is a separate point.
    replies(1): >>26632238 #
    11. krageon ◴[30 Mar 21 08:16 UTC] No.26632238{5}[source]▶
    I think it's important to re-emphasize it's not about who is right.