Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

I sat thinking to myself... That's interesting because the architect shoots down my ideas too (different workplace, so I don't _know_ her situation) but it's certainly not because I'm female, because I'm not female, but it's probably because I'm an intermediate level Dev with lots to learn and the idea has some flaws in it that he can see that I can't.

One of the really good things for me about hanging on HN is hearing "X happens to me too as a man because (reasons) and has nothing to do with gender." That's been enormously helpful to me in trying to find a path forward in my own life.

I hope you get constructive engagement of your points. I don't like the characterization that it's sexism on both sides but that's not intended to be a big attack or something. I think we don't have good language for talking about these issues that acknowledge in a non-blamey fashion that "Gender is, in fact, a factor in outcomes and it's complicated."

So far, we mostly do a sucky job of trying to discuss this at all. It ends up being people on both sides pointing fingers and even if you are bending over backwards to not point fingers, it will get interpreted as such by a lot of people and that tends to go bad places, not good.

Yes things can be improved. But at some point will critical thinking and the benefit of the doubt be encouraged in society?

Or are we doomed to the media/twitter blowing up things out of proportion and people looking through prisms of victimhood.

I don't self identify as a feminist. I never have. I generally agree with this criticism.

Was the architect dismissive of my ideas because I am a woman? Because he shoots down everyone’s ideas? Because he has a specific problem with me? Because my ideas are bad?

One of the greatest challenges I had to overcome in my career was not reading too much into the actions of others. When you do you can easily be offended by everything.

It's incredibly hard to keep having an open mind, keep trying to figure out "Is this actually constructive criticism or toxic bullshit?" and keep trying to engage in good faith in the face of certain patterns. It's just exhausting. It takes all your time and mental and emotional energy to try to sort it out, which detracts from putting energy into things that will actually advance your career.

You can spend hours and hours wondering "What did he mean by that?" in an exchange that lasted under a minute. And you may never figure it out.

It's vastly easier to just start erring on the side of "You're all just sexist pigs!" Though, unfortunately, that seems to make the problem more intractable and unresolvable, but it makes is a little easier on a day-to-day basis to cope in the face of a situation that is inherently excessively hard to parse and navigate.

So if we lived in a world were the concept of sexism was not as well developed as it is now, at least here in the US, you wouldn't have this internal conflict? Is this not enough reason to not engage in discussion and encourage others (presumably women) not to engage in behavior that keeps sexism at the very forefront of thought?

For example, an enormous amount of misunderstanding, bad communication and fraught decision making has resulted from the social activist redefinition of “racism” that has gained prominence in the last decade or so. And there are still so many people talking past each other completely obliviously. A richer taxonomy of terms and ideas could help everyone reach understanding.

It seems like the same dynamic as you’re describing in these dialogues on sexism.

That's basically a personal attack.

I tend to get more attention and engagement for certain topics. If I am less engaged on other topics, that's partly because of "audience response," so to speak.

My first comment on HN today is this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26612921

It's about health stuff. It has two upvotes and zero replies.

I also posted this which is my writing on one of my many blogs:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26615169

It has zero upvotes and zero comments (and not because my stuff never does well -- sometimes, it does well).

I'm not pouring salt on any wounds to engage here. I go out of my way to not pour salt on wounds.

It's an inherently hard problem to solve. My failure to readily solve it is not because I'm not trying hard enough or something.

You can infer that I am handling it pretty darn well based on my cumulative karma here and the fact that I haven't been banned (at least not yet).

When you said above:

> "Is this actually constructive criticism or toxic bullshit?" and keep trying to engage in good faith in the face of certain patterns. It's just exhausting

I'm not sure why it's hard to get this rather simple point across, but what I'm trying to say is the fact that you engage in frequent discussion about sexism may have something to do with it being at the forefront of your thought and the source of your struggle in deciding if something is out of good faith criticism or "toxic bullshit".

I talk about sexism because it comes up. I talk about sexism because it is pertinent to my life. I talk about sexism because I happen to be online and have nothing better to do because the thing my life revolves around is coping with my medical situation. [2]

I overall have a really positive opinion of HN which is why I spend so much time here. There seems to be no good way to express that and also state clearly "But I still need more income anyway, even though I don't hate everyone here."

Wherever you go, there you are.

I am likely the highest ranked woman here because literally starving and being homeless helped me heal when that isn't supposed to be possible. It's routinely drama to talk about my medical situation and I get called a liar to my face and told I'm crazy for talking about the fact that I'm getting healthier when that isn't supposed to be possible.

Hacker News is the only place on the internet where it is ever possible for me to have any kind of meaty, meaningful discussion of medical material and it has been a source of occasional one-off conversations with people with PhDs in Biology or what not who were kind enough to answer my questions in layman's terms, which has literally been lifesaving and life giving.

I don't hate HN. I do hate being desperately poor. It really sucks and I would like it to stop being a part of my life.

I'm at a point where I got the memo: Contrary to everything medical science seems to believe about my condition, semi-fasting is beneficial and will likely remain a part of my protocol for the rest of my life, even if I stop being poor. Though I only learned that because I was literally homeless and going hungry for part of most months for several years.

For most women, being homeless and going hungry would not be a literally life saving experience for them. It would be merely embittering.

So there is never any good way to talk about the fact that Hacker News literally has helped to save my life and also make the point "I would like to stop being poor." I don't want people to hear "She starved and that saved her life" and use that as some kind of bullshit justification for "Womenz should just be abused. It's better for them!"

I have very poor credibility when it comes to talking about my firsthand experience with getting healthier when the world claims that simply cannot be done. I'm in a no win situation in that regard.

Talking about sexism in the world is generally far less controversial than talking about the fact that I am getting well when that isn't supposed to be possible.

I love and adore HN. I loathe how fucking poor I am. I hate it with every fiber of my being and I would like to stop being poor and I am absolutely certain my gender is a factor in my intractable poverty.

I don't really care to engage further with you on this subject.

[1] https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/a-pragmatic-appr...

[2] https://writepay.blogspot.com/2020/07/my-occupation.html

I don't think you're alone in having nothing better to do in life than posting here, basically anyone posting here right now has nothing better to do in their life. We have a lot more in common that you might think. I'm not saying find something better to do than posting on HN, far from it, heck I'm doing it myself right now. What I am saying is perhaps find other topics to discuss if you want to rid yourself of the curse of being constantly "exhausted" from daily interaction with people (men) in deciding if they're all being "just sexist pigs!"

I was interested to note something in the hiring page for the company wiki where I worked once.

It said the biggest red flag, an automatic no-hire, was a candidate confidently "explaining" things he didn't actually know. This was a big enough problem to be called out in the hiring policy. Interviewers were on notice to watch out for candidates who claimed to know something, but whose explanations were pure bluffing. Happens all the time.

The feminist literature, of course, refers to this as "mansplaining", except that mansplaining by definition refers to an explanation delivered to a woman. How is it different from the ordinary behavior? Well, it isn't.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26613161

I don't think I ever accuse anyone of "mansplaining" because I don't think that's likely to be helpful in remedying the problem. But I do think the use case that men can be oblivious to the stuff women are dealing with and can kind of pick on women and can then act like she's just not trying hard enough or something if she doesn't jump on his suggestion as a brilliant solution is a common enough occurrence that it isn't unreasonable for there to be a word specifically for that pattern.

It's a word useful to kvetch to allies about it happening. It's not a word useful to build bridges, explain to the people doing it why their random unsolicited advice to a woman can be actively harmful, etc.

Edit: And I am not trying to pick a fight with you or something. I do realize the context here is you are probably agreeing with me in some fashion. (Turns out I'm still not perfect and I apologize if this reads as fighty. It's not intended to be.)

> they don't want to have to contemplate altering their own behavior in some way

This is mutually exclusive from the discussion we are having so I rather not engage in this topic. My original point stands regardless of whether you think there is rampant sexism: the way to cope with it is perhaps to avoid or at least stop seeking discussions about that subject. Much like the people suffering from PTSD shouldn't be exposed to things that make them remember the events that caused their PTSD. I am not saying you have PTSD or even that the problem is in any way shape or form with you or women, I am saying avoiding the discussion of such topics may be the best game-theocratical way of improving one's wellbeing.

Intentionally misunderstanding is a tool for accomplishing that goal.

Certainly, I have hurt feelings. Absolutely.

But it doesn't begin to approach anything remotely resembling PTSD.

I can confidently estimate that getting healthier has averted literally millions of dollars worth of medical costs for me and my sons. I just can't talk about that here all that much because people literally call me "crazy" and a "liar" to my face about that topic.

And talking about it also makes me worry that people will use that as an excuse to continue to dismiss my complaints that my gender has proven to be a barrier to networking here and establishing an adequate income. I would like to stop being poor and I never know how to give acknowledgement to HN and the people here for their role in the downright miraculous events of my life while staying the course on saying "My gender remains a barrier to establishing an adequate income and I would like to somehow have that issue resolved."

In Star Wars, everyone focuses on Luke saying "Noooooo!!!!!!" when Darth Vader tells him "I am your father." But the stronger statement of pain in that scene is the silence with which he chooses to fall to what should be his death rather than join his father. (He doesn't die because Leia shows up to miraculously rescue him, but he takes that plunge presumably expecting to die and the statement is "Join my father or die? Give me death, thanks.")

The "loud noise" I sometimes seem to make on HN concerning sexism is the lesser pain compared to issues over which I generally remain silent here.

The whole thing is enormously complicated and there is no good means for me to adequately explain it to you here on HN while maintaining my silence on subjects that I believe other people wouldn't want me to address here.

It's not about hurt feelings, as I mentioned above, it might be helpful not to focus on such discussions not because they can cause hurt feelings, but because they can actually make your life worse in your personal and professional relationships with men. If 80% of it is "toxic bullshit" you're still missing 20% of constructive criticism coming from men where others are not. We all hope to live in a world where that 20% is 21% but until then why not optimize for receiving constructive feedback by removing any psychological barriers?

I am sorry for your other issues that you cannot talk about here but I'm not sure how that's relevant to the topic. If it's sexism you're talking about, you asserting that you're staying silent on the issue in of itself is not evidence for there being sexism. I'm not sure how to continue this discussion.

This isn't actually a conversation I want to be having. I've already said that once. I've chosen to engage with you because I don't think you are being a jerk. I think your desire to be helpful is sincere and your point of view is reasonable, given what you likely know about me and my relationship to HN.

What I'm trying to tell you is that your conclusions are ill informed through no fault of your own. There are things about which I am consistently silent on HN and that's a conscious and strategic choice and it grows out of circumstances that involve other people, not just me.

For that reason, I don't feel free to simply "explain it to you like you are five" as they say. Doing so would likely violate HN guidelines, violate the privacy of multiple other people and probably just make my problems worse, not better.

So my continued silence is in some sense something I feel compelled to maintain and not really something I feel in a position to choose otherwise about. If other people wish to break their silence for my benefit, that's on them and I have no control over that.

So far, other parties have consistently chosen to err on the side of continued silence (which sometimes feels to me like "covering their asses at my expense," but it's arguably a lot more complicated than that) and it's not something I can remedy by calling them out.

It's also not something I care to call them out on in public because the most pertinent parties have generally proven to be of better character than most of the world and there is nothing to be gained by besmirching their public reputation and giving people an easy scapegoat to focus on. The result would be that 5 million people who are more or less equally guilty of essentially sexist behavior would have a short list of people to pin it on and those people would be harmed without my problems actually being remedied.

"It sucks to be me" as they say. But it's also really, really complicated and has helped save my life -- literally.

I would be thrilled to pieces to discontinue this conversation. Continuing to allude to things I am normally silent on is potentially not in my best interest.

Have a good evening. Please don't be angry if I simply stop replying. It's really not a conversation I wish to continue and I'm very sympathetic to what you are trying to do here and why you likely see things the way you see them, but you simply aren't really in possession of the all facts and I am in no position to remedy that matter and enlighten you.

If all you’ve been doing is fighting for your damn life as a group, then this will define your character until new types of challenges balance out your origins. This is true for a lot of groups that have consistent struggle. I cannot fault them for being combative.

I'll just say that whenever I see you comment on posts on this topic, I pay attention. I tend to switch accounts every so often as well, so I have several years of doing so under my belt at this point.

I don't always agree with you, but I've learned a lot from your comments and am confident that you're making from from a place of open desire to share your perspective and learn of the perspectives of others.

Please don't stop because someone doesn't "get it" :)

Here's a link to the website for The Red Pill, a documentary by a feminist who talked to men's rights activists. You may not agree with the subjects of the documentary, but the perspective is interesting, and was interesting to the feminist filmmaker who created it.

I guarantee whoever flagged me for recommending it did not watch it himself (yes, it was a dude)

http://theredpillmovie.com/