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3883 points kuroguro | 15 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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breakingcups ◴[] No.26296724[source]
It is absolutely unbelievable (and unforgivable) that a cash cow such as GTA V has a problem like this present for over 6 years and it turns out to be something so absolutely simple.

I do not agree with the sibling comment saying that this problem only looks simple and that we are missing context.

This online gamemode alone made $1 billion in 2017 alone.

Tweaking two functions to go from a load time of 6 minutes to less than two minutes is something any developer worth their salt should be able to do in a codebase like this equipped with a good profiler.

Instead, someone with no source code managed to do this to an obfuscated executable loaded with anti-cheat measures.

The fact that this problem is caused by Rockstar's excessive microtransaction policy (the 10MB of JSON causing this bottleneck are all available microtransaction items) is the cherry on top.

(And yes, I might also still be salty because their parent company unjustly DMCA'd re3 (https://github.com/GTAmodding/re3), the reverse engineered version of GTA III and Vice City. A twenty-year-old game. Which wasn't even playable without purchasing the original game.)

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thrwyoilarticle ◴[] No.26297961[source]
The popular view is that companies who write software know how to prioritise, so if a problem like this isn't fixed, it's because they've done the calculations and decided it's not worthwhile.

I disagree. If there are no internal incentives for the people who know how to fix this to fix it, or if there's no path from them thinking fixing it could improve revenues to being assigned the ticket, things like this won't get fixed. I can fully believe the load times will result in fewer users and lower expenditure.

I think we'll see this happen with Facebook Messenger. Both the apps and the website have become slow and painful to use and get worse every month. I think we'll start to see engagement numbers dropping because of this.

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tw04 ◴[] No.26299942[source]
You have just described why I laugh anytime someone complains that government is inefficient. ANY organization of sufficient size is "inefficient" because what a large organization optimizes for (for reasons I cannot explain) cannot align with what that organization's customers want optimized.
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1. toyg ◴[] No.26300873[source]
> for reasons I cannot explain

Any sufficiently large institution, over time, will prioritise self-preservation over achieving their core mission. This is sociology 101. Once a company has enough users to make it hard or impossible to measure immediate performance, self-preservation is achieved with internal manoeuvering and selling to execs.

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2. jack_riminton ◴[] No.26301047[source]
Whats the remedy? apart from reducing the size of the organisation
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3. ayewo ◴[] No.26301334[source]
There was a fantastic discussion some years ago on ways to design an organization to minimize the tendency to drift towards self-preservation instead of remaining customer-focused.

The HN discussion[1] was started by an article that provided numbers that seemed to suggest that Wikipedia's spending was slowly spiraling out of control.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14287235

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4. pdimitar ◴[] No.26301388[source]
Many people would say "more accountability" but I've seen that used successfully to deflect lightning strikes to innocent people who were then fired so... I'd like to know as well.
5. buran77 ◴[] No.26301392[source]
Even if you take engineering you see that adding more links on a chain increases latency and demands more auxiliary circuitry. But at least in engineering you can design each part to do what you want it to do close to perfection. And it will scale better because you can build everything to spec and bin, which is why we automate a lot of tasks. With humans that can't happen. Human "binning" is a constantly moving target.

After tangentially working on this for a long time I'd say that the core issue is so deeply ingrained in human psyche that it may not even be a matter of education (starts early), let alone organization (starts happening when everything else is "set in stone"). There's no organizational structure that fits the types of activities we humans tend to do these days and that can deliver low latency, consistent results at scale. We mitigate issues in one area by accentuating them in others.

You can have one large flat structure but the load on the single coordinating circuit (the manager) will compromise quality. You can split the thing in multiple, individually coordinated units but the added layer of coordination and latency will compromise performance.

Maybe some form of general purpose but not quite full AI, something that combines human like intelligence and engineering like consistency, might be able to do what humans are supposed to but without the variability of humans (which is both good and bad).

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6. toyg ◴[] No.26301509{3}[source]
Introducing AI into work relations is how you turn every org into Uber or Amazon delivery: platforms where the worker has no real agency on his work, the apotheosis of alienation. I have no doubt that someone will try it (already we see it creeping in for hiring), I just think it will be Fundamentally Bad.
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7. donkeyd ◴[] No.26301669[source]
I doubt there is a remedy and personally accept this as a fact of life.
8. tehjoker ◴[] No.26305078[source]
It's not a perfect remedy, but you have to loop in the people affected by decisions as part of the decision making structure. That is, for example, customers and workers have to be part of the management structure.

This doesn't happen because it would reduce the power of top decision makers and potentially impact profits. e.g. a customer might ask for a chronologically ordered timeline on Facebook, but that would harsh engagement metrics, revenue, etc. If stuff like this did happen more often though, you'd get products and services that more often achieve their stated aims.

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9. SilasX ◴[] No.26305980[source]
Competition/choice, which means that self-preservation requires that they care about efficiency. It obviously that wasn't enough here, but definitely tames some inefficiencies.
10. buran77 ◴[] No.26306146{4}[source]
> Introducing AI into work relations is

We don't really know what it is simply because we haven't introduced any "real" AI anywhere, let alone:

>> some form of general purpose but not quite full AI

Talking about efficiency as you scale up large organizations, it's inevitable that humans will introduce delays and variability in the work which cannot be eliminated because it's human nature, biologically and psychologically. Since humans can't change on a timescale that makes this discussion relevant, the only way for very large organizations (like large companies or governments) to operate just as efficiently as small ones is if they rely (quasi)exclusively on some AI that's as capable as top individuals at delivering results but with fewer of the drawbacks. Not only would it not operate as 100.000 distinct entities but as one or a few, it would also run consistently and predictably.

11. jack_riminton ◴[] No.26313572{3}[source]
I understand what you're saying. When I was working as a Product Manager, I had to try really hard to do things for the customer (after user testing etc.)

Normally the response from management was "but will that increase our profits?", to which my answer was "eventually, yes"

12. jack_riminton ◴[] No.26313817{3}[source]
That really is a fantastic quote and a fantastic thread!

What really stuck out is that Buffet said its the most important thing about Business and he didn't learn it in Business school. Same! I did an MBA and it was the biggest elephant in the room.

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13. brokenmachine ◴[] No.26325243{4}[source]
But he didn't specify how he arranged things to avoid the problem.
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14. jack_riminton ◴[] No.26326773{5}[source]
Fair point. The next poster explains how Amazon identifies and tries to mitigate it:

"if you’re not watchful, the process can become the thing. This can happen very easily in large organizations. The process becomes the proxy for the result you want. You stop looking at outcomes and just make sure you’re doing the process right"

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15. brokenmachine ◴[] No.26335667{6}[source]
Yeah, I thought that was very insightful.