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830 points todsacerdoti | 23 comments | | HN request time: 2.044s | source | bottom
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pja ◴[] No.25136113[source]
I’m seeing a lot of positive comments on HN about this: to me it seems to be purely a cynical piece of PR on Apple’s part.

They hope to significantly reduce the pressure on politicians to take a close look at their App store practices by significantly reducing the absolute number of developers suffering the full impact whilst taking the minimum possible hit to their revenue. This has nothing to do with “doing the right thing” or “accelerating innovation” and everything to do with limiting the number of outraged letters to senators from devs, the number of newspaper interviews with prominent indie developers & so on.

Indie devs have an outsize PR impact relative to their revenue contribution, so buy them off with a smaller revenue tax that delivers outsize returns if it prevents the 30% house rake on the majority of Apple’s App Store income coming under scrutiny.

Apple / Google’s 30% take is the anti-competitive elephant in the room here, not a few crumbs thrown to small developers.

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1. danShumway ◴[] No.25137364[source]
This news doesn't mean people shouldn't continue to put pressure on Apple and legislators to address the core issue (app store competition), but it's still really good news for small developers.

It should also solidly put down all of the arguments we were seeing about whether indie devs and lawsuits putting pressure on Apple and legislators are at all worthwhile. A drop in app fees by 15% is a substantial win, and the reason that drop happened is because Apple is now scared of critics, bad PR, and how that might impact future legislation against them.

The number of hot takes I was seeing about how the Apple/Epic fight benefited literally no one and it was just two companies arguing about who got to take all the money... it's very clear from this program that the overall pressure on Apple has been making a difference.

It's not so large a difference that devs should now stop fighting for better terms, but it's positive to see Apple at least partially show signs of cracking, or at least acknowledge on some level that they're frightened about the potential outcome of this fight. And there are a lot of small devs who are going to be making a lot more money just because of this minor victory.

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2. whimsicalism ◴[] No.25137969[source]
> The number of hot takes I was seeing about how the Apple/Epic fight benefited literally no one and it was just two companies arguing about who got to take all the money...

Most of the people I saw who I knew using these takes had a substantial vested interest in Apple prevailing, so I doubt it'll change their opinion.

It's good news unless it diffuses the momentum for more.

3. enos_feedler ◴[] No.25138758[source]
Solidly? Not really. Still believe the Epic and Apple fight is all about Tim Sweeney being a greedy business man. Zero proof this 15% reduction has anything to do with pressure from that legal battle. Apple has made rev share changes in the past unprovoked (like 15% for sustained subs). How long do you think this change was in the works for? If this change was a response that’s great. But I would bet in that case Apple did it to take wind out of Epic’s sails around standing up for little devs. Apple just showed they cared about them in a single change. Will Epic back away now? Fat chance.
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4. friedman23 ◴[] No.25138802[source]
Maybe Tim Sweeney is greedy but 30% cut on revenue is exorbitant.
5. ROARosen ◴[] No.25138862[source]
> Apple just showed they cared about them in a single change.

Apple just showed they care about their image. If they really cared about small devs, they can allow third-party app stores or platforms like Epic's, which would really help developers by bringing down processing costs.

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6. whywhywhywhy ◴[] No.25138997[source]
>is all about Tim Sweeney being a greedy business man

Tim Sweeney provides one of the most advanced game engine technologies in the world completely for free for all revenue under 1 million. After 1 million you pay 5% on revenue over that, if your game makes $1,200,000 you pay Tim Sweeney $10,000.

If you make 2 games and both games equally make 600K you pay Sweeney nothing.

It's definitely a business but not sure "greedy" describes this.

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7. carlosdp ◴[] No.25139115{3}[source]
The Unreal development fund also regularly funds competitor open source game engines, like Godot Engine. Tim Sweeney is definitely not someone I'd describe as "greedy."
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8. enos_feedler ◴[] No.25139449{3}[source]
I agree that the concept of a store within a store should exist for Epic and for users. I think “processing costs” is not really the issue. Apple’s revenue sharing business agreements just happen to be collected at processing time. They could easily invoice later. The core issue is: how much should Epic pay to have their own store on the iPhone?
9. enos_feedler ◴[] No.25139513{3}[source]
The greed comes from how he puts his users and shareholders in harm’s way in an effort to reduce his bill with Apple.
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10. zepto ◴[] No.25139527{3}[source]
Sweeney has a net worth north of 5 billion dollars.

Most of that comes from selling in-game currency to children.

He wants a higher cut.

Does that make him greedy?

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11. enos_feedler ◴[] No.25139572{4}[source]
High five!
12. dlubarov ◴[] No.25139832{4}[source]
Tim Sweeney is Epic's majority shareholder, so if you believe his actions were harmful to shareholders, doesn't that contract your stance that he was motivated by greed?
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13. bigbubba ◴[] No.25139876{5}[source]
Have you chosen the most heinous crime you can think of for this goofy analogy, in hopes the immorality of murder would tarnish Tim Sweeney by association?
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14. danShumway ◴[] No.25139993[source]
> Tim Sweeney being a greedy business man.

Not really relevant to what we're talking about.

> Apple has made rev share changes in the past unprovoked (like 15% for sustained subs)

That wasn't an unprovoked change, it was an olive branch to companies like Amazon that were pressuring Apple for more attractive terms.

> But I would bet in that case Apple did it to take wind out of Epic’s sails around standing up for little devs.

Right, that's what I said. Apple is facing pressure from Epic, it's getting bad PR in press releases from other large companies like Microsoft, indie devs are starting to get mad, and legislators are starting to float ideas about antitrust.

Apple is in a position where they need a positive PR push about their app store policies; they need to be able to hit back at the negative press and claim that they're offering more attractive terms than the competition. They're in that position because the negative pressure is working; it's forcing them to respond.

> Zero proof this 15% reduction has anything to do with pressure from that legal battle.

Short of email leaks or Apple publicly admitting that they're doing this to take public pressure off of their store policies, what would convince you that these changes are related to the current legal battle(s) they're facing?

My take is that we've seen this happen multiple times with multiple companies. Steam went through the same process with Epic: they got slammed by publishers for doing very little work in courting them, and as a result, they changed some of their terms to be more attractive to large studios. Microsoft originally ported IE to Macs to help try and rein in suspicions that they were trying to turn the web into a Windows only platform. Apple's recent review process overhauls are minor concessions to try and get people to stop talking about the negative experiences that publishers like Basecamp have had with opaque rules and rejections.

At some point, when you look at the broader industry, you start to see patterns, and those patterns are that broad, uniform negative press and lawsuits are often (but not always) effective tools when it comes to forcing companies to at least make small concessions on their policies. I think it's very reasonable to look at this change as an indication that Apple is scared of antitrust and thinks that it is possible that further antitrust efforts might succeed.

15. ribosometronome ◴[] No.25139997{3}[source]
You're replying in a comment thread about how offering lower rates to small devs is a cynical move that hopes to buy them off for good PR.
16. zepto ◴[] No.25140006{5}[source]
More than 90% of Epic is owned by Sweeney and TenCent. No other shareholders are significant.

TenCent controls Epic’s access to the Chinese market.

Together, they decided to put Epic’s customers in harms way.

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17. zepto ◴[] No.25140039{3}[source]
If bringing down processing costs is the issue, Apple just did that.

Allowing multiple stores would increase costs doe small developers, because of the overhead of dealing with many stores and many sets of rules.

Any cost saving would disappear into one or two levels of middlemen, otherwise known as publishing companies.

18. enos_feedler ◴[] No.25140040{6}[source]
Maybe subconsciously. I wish I could give my brain credit for it.
19. enos_feedler ◴[] No.25140097{5}[source]
Greed can motivate you to make a stupid move that ultimately harms you and others. That’s what is happening here.
20. enos_feedler ◴[] No.25140125{6}[source]
Agreed. But those aren’t the only shareholders. They took action that will ultimately damage the others (when this whole thing plays out). Do you think every shareholder is in agreement with this move?
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21. zepto ◴[] No.25140152{7}[source]
No, I just don’t think the potential harm to minority shareholders is a good argument for Sweeney’s greed which can be evaluated in other ways.

I don’t think Epic will prevail, but I respect the investors right to make a bet on Sweeney if they so choose. They can sell their stake if they like.

Not so the customers, who Epic could clearly have protected but chose not to for publicity reasons alone.

22. stale2002 ◴[] No.25140456[source]
> I was seeing about how the Apple/Epic fight benefited literally no one and it was just two companies arguing about who got to take all the money... it's very clear from this program that the overall pressure on Apple has been making a difference.

Very true! This new change by Apple, although obviously a PR move, is still evidence that these legal fights against Apple are working.

This is a very clear example of why the lawsuit against Apple was a good thing, and why people should continue to put on more pressure against Apple. Because it forces them to make changes like this.

23. birdyrooster ◴[] No.25140745{6}[source]
Probably just reduction ad absurdum. But I think about this every time I make one whether this rhetoric and is doing as you say. At the very least it has the smell of bias, which could make the listener believe you were trying to slander.