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482 points ilamont | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.704s | source
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ufmace ◴[] No.23806806[source]
I think there's a larger point in what he said. Basically all current social media ends up optimizing for creating outrage, spawning mobs, less thoughtful discussion and more vitriolic arguments, etc. It's becoming a real concern to me that this is going to drive us into some kind of civil war or something if we don't find some way to check it.

The outrage seems to be like a drug. Nothing generates engagement quite like it, even if it's toxic in the long-term. So all social media platforms that embrace it grow bigger until they become near-monopolies, and all that don't so far have had a hard time growing userbases, making money, and generally fade into irrelevance.

It would be a real service to society IMO if we could find a way to somehow generate enough engagement and energy to challenge the big players without the outrage culture.

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1. bmitc ◴[] No.23808636[source]
> It would be a real service to society IMO if we could find a way to somehow generate enough engagement and energy to challenge the big players without the outrage culture.

I'm not being cheeky (see below), but this already exists. It's talking to one another, person to person. :)

Social media, at its core, targets the very primal part of our brain and bodies. This is my feeling and observation, and I would be very interested to see if there have been studies that show there are fundamental differences to how people communicate online, primarily via text, versus communicating in person. I would suspect there are differences in that our brain literally responds differently.

As I type this, you can't see me. You don't know me. And I can't see nor do I know you. We can't respond to facial expressions or hear the cadence and tone of voice. Many, many times on the Internet, conversations get sidetracked by someone making a joke and then someone taking it too seriously. That's a simple case of online social media interaction, and there are far more complex examples. It's the same thing as working at a company. Often times you hit this moment where you just stop typing a message or an e-mail and just call the other person or go over to their desk. Even with just voice-to-voice communication, things are communicated much faster, and in person is even faster.

A lot of this has to do with the process. Online, someone types something and then someone else types another thing in response and so on. In person, it's a more dynamic exchange.

So at the core, my hypothesis is that almost all media (such as news) and especially social media are doing nothing but bypassing our natural filters and sensors for understanding things and try to directly target our inner primal self. As we can see online, humans are innately primal, especially when you remove all of our other evolved methods of understanding and empathy. When people see someone online say something they vehemently disagree with, they immediately ignore all possibilities and empathetic responses. We go straight to the core of finding the thing we hate about what they just said and then let them know that. However, if a stranger on the train says something like this, we often let it go. If we do engage, we are much more empathetic about their feelings and thoughts, both for human and societal reasons.

Given this, I think it's essentially impossible to build an online community that is directly based upon this type of communication. It's tough enough to build one in person with people you know. And as we've all experienced over the past months, even digital face-to-face communication is hard. There's still dynamics missing like low-latency, body language, tone, hand motions, subtleties of voice, etc.

I view it as an API or architecture diagram. If one drew one out for human communication, there's a lot of abstraction built upon our inner primal workings. But modern media, the Internet, and now social media has given a way to bypass all of that. The inner core can be accessed directly via advertisements, news, social media, propaganda, forums, etc., and now the Internet is like a connection between all these primal cores. It's why it's so insane.

Adam Curtis' documentary All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace covers this.

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2. ufmace ◴[] No.23808993[source]
I agree with pretty much all of this.

The difference in what I'm saying is that I'm starting to think that it's just not enough to tell people to interact face to face instead. We've built all of these outrage-amplification machines that work so very well at demanding our attention. Requests to be nice to each other or abandon them have the problem of not being outrageous enough to stick in our minds and spread on a large scale.

What's the solution then? I don't really know. Maybe we'll all just get tired of it at some point. Maybe some unforeseeable event will happen that will make us put the worst of it aside and unite after all. Maybe the Government should regulate it all somehow - though in the climate they've created, it's hard to hope that we'd be able to do something that's a net benefit overall. Or maybe it'll all just keep growing until it blows up in our faces somehow.

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3. bmitc ◴[] No.23809590[source]
I think the main issue is that we have simply outpaced ourselves in that our technological progress far exceeds our emotional progress, which is essentially locked in to our biological makeup. So I think your latter point is on point. I don't know how to solve these issues, and I don't think we can.

Humans were not made for the technology we've gifted ourselves. I am reminded of Christmas Island that is mentioned in Planet Earth II, episode 1. It describes an island with a crab that flourished there for millions of years. Human settlers brought a type of non-native ant to the island, the yellow crazy ant, and it turns out that the ant can easily kill the crabs, which have zero protection against the ants' attack. This shows there are moments in which life presents change in which there is no going back. The crabs are not able to evolve quickly enough against the ants, and the ants must be controlled by humans to even give the crabs a chance.

Why I was reminded of this is because I feel technology is the ant, and us humans are both the crabs and humans who brought the ant. There's a quote by David Attenborough that stuck with me: "the greatest threat they [the crabs] face is change".

I feel we've reached a turning point in which we've changed things forever, and I see no indication that things will get better or that we'll be able to adapt. I feel we are simply biologically limited, both in intelligence and emotional composition, to handle the worlds we continue to create.

And now I am reminded of a speech by El Jefe in The Counselor, written by Cormac McCarthy. It shouldn't be surprising that McCarthy is a resident scholar at The Santa Fe Institute, the only author to have such an appointment to my knowledge.

> Actions create consequences which produce new worlds, and they’re all different. Where the bodies are buried in the desert, that is a certain world. Where the bodies are simply left to be found, that is another. And all these worlds, heretofore unknown to us, they must have always been there, must they not?

> Counselor, at some point, you have to anknowledge the reality of the world you're in. There is not some other world. This is not a hiatus.

> I would urge you to see the truth of the situation you’re in, Counselor. That is my advice. It is not for me to tell you what you should have done or not done. The world in which you seek to undo the mistakes that you made is different from the world where the mistakes were made. You are now at the crossing. And you want to choose, but there is no choosing there. There’s only accepting. The choosing was done a long time ago.

> I don’t mean to offend you, but reflective men often find themselves at a place removed from the realities of life. In any case, we should all prepare a place where we can accommodate all the tragedies that sooner or later will come to our lives. But this is an economy few people care to practice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_crazy_ant#Impact_on_C...

https://youtu.be/X89AXNO6TBw