←back to thread

669 points danso | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
Show context
nmstoker ◴[] No.23262122[source]
Clearly needs to be solved and fast, and I have huge sympathy for those affected.

However to me the more interesting point is why anyone would want to submit a handwritten script when they could type it. Not to sound like an old foggey, but in my day the only people who got to type were dyslexic and it gave them a huge advantage (no doubt why so many parents were having their children tested). Even if you could write fast, why take the chance that your exam efforts could be rejected based on a marker not being able to read your writing. Add to that the ability to compose text far more easily when typing and for those with a modest amount of practice the dramatically faster rate of output and it seems really strange that everyone doesn't type them and they just avoid this problem entirely.

replies(3): >>23262231 #>>23262264 #>>23262600 #
vaidhy ◴[] No.23262600[source]
AP stat/ AP Chem/ AP Phys etc are about math formulae and explaining the calculation. I do not want my kids to learn TeX or figure out word formula editor just before the AP exams.
replies(2): >>23263040 #>>23263314 #
Mirioron ◴[] No.23263040[source]
This brings up an interesting point: how come math input is so difficult on a computer? Even TeX seems like an awful solution for this.
replies(2): >>23263334 #>>23263765 #
Jach ◴[] No.23263765[source]
It's not though? $x=\frac{-b\pm\sqrt{b^2-4ac}}{2a}$. If you have a visualizer hooked up while you're typing, even easier.

And then there's Mathematica.

replies(3): >>23263960 #>>23263993 #>>23267516 #
1. Mirioron ◴[] No.23263993[source]
What you wrote is almost unreadable to me in the text itself. The only reason I got it is because I recognized the formula from sqrt(b^2 - 4ac).

x = (-b +- sqrt(b^2 - 4ac)) / (2a)

This, however is somewhat readable. Requiring me to use TeX or Mathematica is what I would consider difficult. Whenever I actually need to write math they won't be available. I'd have more luck using custom emojis as math symbols in most cases.

replies(1): >>23264310 #
2. Jach ◴[] No.23264310[source]
Ok, how long do you think it'd take to get somewhat comfortable with reading/writing such things? Would it really be "so difficult"? You can also write what you wrote in TeX too, it just won't look as nice in the output and might mislead a reader into thinking a multiplication of s, q, r, t is happening as well as wondering what's going on with the "+-". ± is a symbol too you know.. On Linux it's just compose key then + then -. (Edit: while I'm mentioning it, the compose key is great. Could write it as x = (-b ± √(b² - 4ac))/(2a) -- with √ being compose then v then /, and ² being compose then ^ then 2.)

You can also write that in Mathematica, and it will look nice + understand that sqrt() is the square root function, though I think it will interpret the "+-" as "-".

Under what conditions are you writing math on a computer where you don't have proper tools to do it? (Mathematica isn't the only one, and even if you're using a programming language like Python you can write almost exactly what you wrote by adjusting/clarifying the operators.) Where possibly the most math-written-with-computer happens is MathOverflow, and hey, they use TeX extensively. And when you ask a question, they show a preview below so you can make sure your math is formatted in a readable way too and not just in the easiest way to type.

replies(1): >>23266787 #
3. Mirioron ◴[] No.23266787[source]
>Under what conditions are you writing math on a computer where you don't have proper tools to do it?

Chat applications. From IRCs and MSNs to Skypes, Telegrams and Discords. Other places would be comment sections such as these. They're never going to have built in TeX or any other such support.

Does the compose key work on different keyboard layouts?

replies(1): >>23268149 #
4. Jach ◴[] No.23268149{3}[source]
> Does the compose key work on different keyboard layouts?

Yup, switching to Dvorak and the sequence is the same (. then [ on qwerty). There also seems to be an ibus mode for it in ibus-table-others, along with a mode that tries to map LaTeX to unicode symbols, but I haven't tried either.

As for your other remark, I remember back in the day using the Gaim-LaTeX plugin to communicate LaTeX with people over MSN/AIM/IRC/etc... If you had the plugin, it would auto-render LaTeX for you. I also think there may have been a plugin that would send the other party an image instead so you could still share if they didn't have it. I haven't used anything like it in a long time as my need to communicate or have communicated formatted math to people over IM is pretty much 0 these days, but perhaps https://sourceforge.net/projects/pidgin-latex/ still works. But also on IRC, many rooms have bots that accept programs to eval and print, typically used for math calculations, and then you just use the syntax of the language instead of LaTeX.

For Skype, Telegram, Discord, comment hosts like HN or Discus or blog software, that's a failing on them for not implementing a very well-known standard (TeX)...

But you can still share raw TeX strings, especially since almost everyone at least implements some sort of blockquote or monotext formatting system where it's possible to bypass markdown et al. rules turning 345 into nonsense. And while you may have found it difficult to read the equation I posted earlier, I'd be really surprised if it took you a long time to get comfortable enough to read it and other arbitrary equations around whatever level of math you have in their raw TeX form (especially if the poster bothered to format it a bit more nicely with whitespace, which I didn't do). It's kind of like getting used to reading regexes, but even easier.

I guess maybe you could try to convince me it's more difficult to pick up (even for a high schooler) than I think, perhaps since I've just been used to it for so long and the last time I saw someone pick it up was in college? And of course this is only talking about writing math with the purpose of displaying it nicely in the end, actually calculating will tend to involve another syntax yet again but I don't think those are typically bad either... Perhaps raw Python can be terrible if you're trying to do symbolic math, but then why wouldn't you be using a system explicitly for that or even in Python use SymPy (and I'm just now remembering there's that whole Jupyter ecosystem that I'm sure has support for SymPy and rendering nice looking math with LaTeX). I've enjoyed Maxima, which even in a terminal does a good job with ASCII graphics http://maxima.sourceforge.net/i/maximacl.png but of course there's a graphical front end.

I got a bit off topic but as a last resort to communicating math over such channels, you can go to sites like https://www.codecogs.com/latex/eqneditor.php?lang=en-en and write out your math (it even has some buttons to help if you don't yet know the TeX-isms) and share a link to the output like https://latex.codecogs.com/png.download?%5Cdpi%7B120%7D%20%5... Slack even downloads and displays it for you in-chat.

(It's also worth pointing out that Discord has an ok-ish Pidgin connector... and even my ghetto home-grown blog has had LaTeX support for posts and comments through a JS library that I haven't bothered to update since 2012. It even lets you right-click to view the TeX source too, example near the bottom here https://www.thejach.com/view/2011/9/playing_with_morton_numb... So never say never!)