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669 points danso | 29 comments | | HN request time: 1.331s | source | bottom
1. Hokusai ◴[] No.23262161[source]
> Basically, only Apple (and, more recently, Samsung) use the HEIC format — most other websites and platforms don’t support it. Even popular Silicon Valley-based services, such as Slack, don’t treat HEICs the same way as standard JPEGs.

This is the key part. Many in the software industry still believes that the start-up mindset of break things move fast applies to us. The economy depends on software, governments depend on software, education depends on software, lives depend on software ... but we treat software as a toy where a new fancy image format is a reasonable change to make because our platform gets a little more fancy and for sure a little less compatible to lock-in users.

I am all for regulation, and it is coming, as the software industry has shown to be an immature risk-taking mess. But, it can be a more bearable amount of regulation if we exercise some level of self-constraint on how we break each new release of software.

If we keep blaming traditional business (education, accounting, grocery stores, etc.) for not "updating fast enough" to new trends, they are going to justly react to our demands on their thin margin profits and ask the government to stop us. When you do not know if your business will survive another month, to have to invest non-stop in new software without any tangible benefit is an unreasonable demand.

Software has become too important the past twenty years. It is time that as a industry we realize that and act accordingly.

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2. jp555 ◴[] No.23262214[source]
You're suggesting bureaucratic "software" works better?

I don't put as much faith in that as you.

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3. cm2187 ◴[] No.23262330[source]
Plus the backend doesn't move fast. The .net framework only got a json serializer recently. I am not holding my breath for system.drawing to handle HEIC!
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4. MattGaiser ◴[] No.23262608[source]
> The .net framework only got a json serializer recently.

What do you mean by recently? I am not a .net user, but this seems quite basic.

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5. Hokusai ◴[] No.23262791[source]
> You're suggesting bureaucratic "software" works better?

It works for building regulations, for electric regulations, for food safety regulations, for all the rest of industries actually. If anything we see people dying because that regulations are not enforced or are removed after lobbying.

So, software is not going to be "better" but more reliable and a less costly foundation for the rest of business and industries. So, software is going to be better for the end users even if it is worse for us to develop.

Do you think that all the students that are now worried of failing are thinking "at least I got HEIC images in my phone". They do not care, and why should they?

Regulations are a trade off. How deep and or even intrusive future regulation are going to be depends on how much misalignment there is between Apple/Google/Facebook business models and everyone else needs and wants. Each time that the Internet is broken and costs people time and money, the fingers are going to point to our industry.

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6. SimonPStevens ◴[] No.23262840[source]
DataContractJsonSerialiser has been around since .net 3.5 which is 2007, so 13 years. And I think the open source JSON.net has been around for longer, but I can't find a version history right now.
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7. mywittyname ◴[] No.23262850[source]
I'm not sure where you got that impression. I think the parent was saying that software is extremely crucial now, and technology companies can't continue this trend of randomly breaking traditions for the sake of moving forward.

Software is critical to the function of society. And society can't afford to keep up with the rate of emerging technological trends, it's just not possible. Technology companies have to continue to support interoperability with the lowest common denominator systems.

This is significantly worse than Apple ending Flash support. At least that was announced well ahead of time and was major, major news. This migration to a new default image format is a blindsiding. Three years is not really an appropriate time window for such a transition.

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8. gamblor956 ◴[] No.23262893[source]
The .net framework only got a json serializer recently.

If by "recently", you mean more than a decade ago...Unless you are specifically referring to the web portion of .net (i.e., core or asp.net) and not the framework as a whole.

9. SimonPStevens ◴[] No.23262929{3}[source]
gp is probably thinking of system.text.json which was only added to .net core in version 3, which less than a year old. But it's not been high priority to add because of a very well established open source project called JSON.net that has been around for ages.

However the full framework has had a different JSON serialiser (DataContractJsonSerialiser) since v3.5 in 2007.

10. bananabreakfast ◴[] No.23262933{3}[source]
lol "works"

Regulate software and you will kill it.

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11. Hokusai ◴[] No.23262984{3}[source]
> Software is critical to the function of society. And society can't afford to keep up with the rate of emerging technological trends, it's just not possible.

You expressed it better than myself. :)

12. foepys ◴[] No.23262996{3}[source]
Early when JSON was new, people were using the JavaScript parser included in .NET to get the values. Then Microsoft build a small JSON parser for their ASP.NET library. But then James Newton-King build JSON.NET and Microsoft eventually switched a lot of their libraries over to it because it was just very good. It could do a lot of stuff very fast with a nice API.

Last year Microsoft introduced a new and more efficient way to allocate memory natively into .NET Core 2.0 (Span<T>). Since JSON.NET is still used by .NET Framework that doesn't support the new API, Microsoft created System.Text.Json that includes a new JSON parser that utilizes it. The first Microsoft project to use the new parser by default was ASP.NET Core 3.0.

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14. vips7L ◴[] No.23263045{3}[source]
He probably means in the standard library? According to git NewtonSoft.JSON (the defacto standard) has been around since the 2007.
15. sixstringtheory ◴[] No.23263352{4}[source]
One has to wonder how Salesforce ever got their huge glass building in the SF skyline, what with all the regulations preventing anything from working.

Engineering is all about working within constraints. Too many people in software just want to do everything their way, oftentimes what they see as the easiest and quickest way, without worrying about how it affects other people.

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16. neilparikh ◴[] No.23263555{3}[source]
> If anything we see people dying because that regulations are not enforced or are removed after lobbying.

I want to push back on this point a little bit. People die as a result of regulations too, it's just less visible. Here's a very recent example. FDA regulations prevent other labs from creating their own COVID-19 tests, but the CDC tests didn't work. This delay probably lead to people not being diagnosed (and thus not receiving appropriate care), as well as much more spread throughout the US.

Another example would be the FDA approval process for drugs. A drug not being approved probably leads to some people dying, since it may have worked well for them. Zoning regulations in SF probably fall on the definitively net-negative side.

Now, my point here is not that we should remove all regulations. A bad drug being approved would lead to deaths too. Rather, I'm trying to make the point that restricting something has a cost, just like not restricting will have a cost.

17. gkoberger ◴[] No.23263653[source]
I don't feel like Apple adopting a new format inherently means they're moving fast and breaking things. The work on HEIF started in 2012, and Apple has used it since 2017. 8 years isn't exactly a breakneck speed.

First off, they do a good job of converting it to a JPG when necessary. They've thought about backwards compatibility.

Secondly, if we didn't move forward, we'd never see any innovation. HEIF is smaller and allows for cool features like Live Photo.

Lastly, iOS is the second most popular phone operating system on the planet, and evidently they're asking students to take a picture of their answers with their phone. Is it not reasonable to expect the College Board to test it?

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18. ngz00 ◴[] No.23263691[source]
Uploading images from my iPhone to Google Drive results in HEIC files that I have to manually convert as well.
19. userbinator ◴[] No.23263899[source]
JPEG2000 is... 20 years old and almost no one outside of specialized applications uses it either.

"Innovation" is about the last thing you want in an interchange format. Old and boring works every time.

(Opinion of someone who maintains legacy software and has suffered from far too many breaking changes.)

replies(1): >>23264499 #
20. snorkel ◴[] No.23263900[source]
I fault Apple for being too heavy-handed with making HEIC the default photo file format when even in recent versions of MacOS like Sierra, the Finder app doesn't know what the heck a HEIC file is! Apple hasn't released an update patch to fix either, unless you consider upgrading MacOS to Mojave an update patch!
replies(1): >>23264514 #
21. jimbokun ◴[] No.23264074[source]
What regulation would have prevented this bug?
22. closeparen ◴[] No.23264368[source]
"The state should have protected me from Live Photos" is the weirdest take I've seen in a while.

A regulatory regime for this space would have been focused on protecting the livelihoods of 24-hour photo labs.

23. gkoberger ◴[] No.23264499{3}[source]
Someone needs to be the first to push it. In this case, Apple is probably the #1 or #2 generator of photographs on the planet, and it's a lot easier to make something happen quickly when the format is supported in that way.
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24. gkoberger ◴[] No.23264514[source]
Yeah, that is weird that OSX can't deal with HEIC well.
25. ratww ◴[] No.23265363{3}[source]
NewtonSoft JSON (an open source library included in official sample projects until Microsoft made their own) was first released in 2006, AFAIK.
26. pornel ◴[] No.23265424[source]
HEIF (H.265) is heavily patented, so 8 years is way too soon. We need to wait 20 years for the format to be freely usable.
replies(1): >>23266553 #
27. Polylactic_acid ◴[] No.23266553{3}[source]
Hopefully they change to AVIF soon. Apple has always been the one to hold back free file formats in the past though.
28. ben-schaaf ◴[] No.23267408{4}[source]
HEIC is heavily patented. If it was apple's intent to push a new image format for everyone, they chose just about the worst one. It's much more likely they decided to trade off interoperability for lock-in and reduced file size.
29. nemothekid ◴[] No.23268526{5}[source]
Your salesforce example is so comically bad I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. The immense amount of regulation in the city makes it almost impossible for the now unicorn startups, such as Stripe, to find office space inside SF. Those companies were in the process of moving out of the city (or now, going full remote). That same regulation makes it incredibly difficult to build housing. Your intentions are noble, but your outcome is bizarre. Instead of asking "Why is Apple inventing formats", why not ask "Why didn't College Board test their platform on the largest mobile platform in the US?". HEIC has been around for 3 years and would have been the default on any updated phone as old as the iPhone 5S.