←back to thread

376 points undefined1 | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.22s | source
Show context
_wt8k ◴[] No.22975253[source]
I am an Asian-American high school senior who is nearing the end of the college admissions process.

I am so frustrated and angry that there is this discrimination, and people defend it. I feel that people don't take racism against Asian-Americans as seriously as racism against other groups.

Here's more about me. Like many people on HN, I'm a programmer. I'm interested in functional programming, programming language theory, and type theory. These interests caused me to discover pure math (such as category theory), and although I do not know as much about math than about programming, I want to learn more because I find these ideas elegant and beautiful. (For example, the Curry-Howard correspondence, which links programming to logic through the idea that programs are proofs, or HoTT, which gives types higher-dimensional structure based on the idea that equality types are the isomorphisms of an infinity-groupoid.)

I applied as a CS major to several colleges where PL theory had an academic presence, and in my supplemental essays, I discussed my interests and my desire to work with professors and do undergraduate research. I have competitive stats. Although other kids in my school got into my "reaches" (e.g. Cornell), I got rejected, but luckily I got into some "match" schools that did PL theory.

It's hard to say if affirmative action made a difference. Maybe if my application were exactly the same, but I weren't Asian, I would have gotten in, and if my application were the same except that I got an A instead of a B+ in a class, I would also have gotten in. I got waitlisted from some highly competitive schools, so I could have been on the edge. A big part of me not knowing how much my race would have made a difference is how non-transparent college admissions are. It's left up to some nebulous idea of "fit" decided by a group of people sitting at a table, who only have a few minutes to spend on each applicant.

But, what bothers me is the stereotypes. They've turned liking math and CS into a bad thing, at least when it's an Asian kid who's doing it. People defend affirmative action by saying that there are simply too many highly competitive Asian kids who want to study computer science. So, if I want to go to a good school, I shouldn't study computer science, even though that's what I want to do, just because of the way I was born? Among non-CS people, CS is probably seen as the stereotype track to get a high-paying job (and cynically, perhaps it's a popular major for this reason), but hopefully on a site such as HN, people will be more empathetic to the appeal of CS.

I'm also frustrated because most people probably don't know how math really is like. People just see it as nerdy word problems, and they've never heard of ideas like constructive math, programs-as-proofs, Cartesian closed categories, etc that I've become so intimate with. Why is it bad that I love math? Shouldn't you encourage me to learn this? I guess it's similar to the old stereotype of the "nerd" with no social skills, except with a racial element now.

It's a Catch-22 because people hold Asians to a higher standard, so we need to get higher grades and test scores to be competitive, then that feeds back into the stereotype that we are overly studious and have no personality. There is no winning for us in this game. Isn't it an objectively good thing to do well in school? If it were someone who weren't Asian, people would see high scores and grades as a positive thing or even cheer it on as a sign of increasing equality. Like all competitive high schoolers (of all races), we must play the game of having loads of AP classes, etc, but people specifically see Asians doing this as a negative stereotype.

But, on the front of us studying too much and not having personality, if you play an instrument, people will assume that you're doing it because your parents made you, or because of college admissions. Music is truly a beautiful thing and I experienced just how heartfelt it can be. (Sidenote: Watch Hibike! Euphonium or Your Lie in April!) But, just like the universal language of math, people have somehow turned Asians practicing the universal language of music into a bad thing. I can't imagine stronger proof of not being a robot, of being human, than experiencing how music can move you.

I implore you, in the meritocratic tradition of the hacker culture, to speak out against affirmative action and support Asian kids who want to pursue these passions.

EDIT: In fact, "affirmative action" is a euphemism. It's a vague-sounding term (an action that affirms something?) because people don't want to say "racial discrimination." Words have power to influence people, so I should start calling it what it is.

replies(27): >>22975305 #>>22975370 #>>22975458 #>>22975509 #>>22975552 #>>22975683 #>>22975712 #>>22975723 #>>22975771 #>>22975817 #>>22975930 #>>22976470 #>>22976711 #>>22976789 #>>22976899 #>>22976924 #>>22977229 #>>22977466 #>>22977940 #>>22977974 #>>22978152 #>>22978500 #>>22978748 #>>22979163 #>>22979256 #>>22979341 #>>22995586 #
all_factz ◴[] No.22976789[source]
I agree with all this. Part of the problem, however, is the American college system. Why is it so important to go to a school like Cornell, CMU, or UPenn? I'm not saying you shouldn't want to go to a school like that -- they probably are better, and you do deserve a fair shot at attending one of them. But the stratification of our university system does a disservice to students. In my experience, the most important factor in learning is intrinsic motivation -- the sort of motivation that comes from within, which doesn't depend on which school you're at. I went to an elite private institution for college, and I've learned more in community college courses, I'd wager, because I cared more about what I was learning. This isn't to say that you won't get superior instruction at a Harvard or Cornell; you likely will. So it is unfair, deeply. But it shouldn't be this way. We should level the playing field -- make all universities "pretty good". Fund them, publicly. End the price-gouging private institutions are allowed to inflict on their students, even if it means those institutions close. Europe is a good model: university there is much more self-directed and equitable, and the opportunities to do great research do still exist. We need to break free of the Ivy League system and remember that university is about learning, not competition.
replies(3): >>22977162 #>>22977665 #>>22977897 #
jac241 ◴[] No.22977665[source]
Like you said I think intrinsic motivation matters more than where you go. I went to a "shitty" (at least that's what CMU kids have said more than once to me to my face) school, University of Pittsburgh. I did fun research during undergrad and managed to get a job after graduating easily enough. At that job, different CMU graduates called me dumb for going to a public high school and university, uncultured, and literally laughed in my face when I said that I wanted to switch careers and be a surgeon. During med school interviews, a Harvard girl immediately turned around and stopped talking to me after she asked where I went to college. Now I'm in medical school at a ~40th ranked place (no not Harvard or Penn, shocker) well on my way to my career goals. I've done deep learning research at a top children's hospital and am scoring great on practice board exams.

I guess my point is that people will always find something to shit on you for, and the bias against lower ranked schools comes from above. The state schools like Penn State, OSU, Pitt, Michigan, Florida, Illinois etc. are enormous institutions that have a good amount of research going on and are definitely accessible to a motivated high school student. So if you don't get in to an Ivy League school, your opportunities aren't going to be limited as much as you think, and rejection is a great motivator.

replies(1): >>22979350 #
1. ◴[] No.22979350[source]