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Asian American Discrimination in Harvard Admissions [pdf]

(public.econ.duke.edu)
376 points undefined1 | 8 comments | 25 Apr 20 00:54 UTC | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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dnautics ◴[25 Apr 20 02:34 UTC] No.22975063[source]▶
Not Harvard, but (being Asian American) this sort of soft characterization as being deficient in personality metrics rings true in my head.

For starters, my father in his full time government job repeatedly got "no leadership potential" reviews. Meanwhile in his part time job with the US Navy, he advanced to the level of captain and in his final act for the Navy led a team that completed its first fully digitized inventory system, saving the Navy billions of dollars, and delivered it under budget and ahead of time. (Fwiw he was non-technical, just "good at making things happen for nerds", his words not mine)

In my personal life, I've encountered several situations where people have expressed to me explicitly or implicitly they didn't consider me to be leader-worthy despite my having successfully managed small teams several times in my career.

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woofie11 ◴[25 Apr 20 02:54 UTC] No.22975163[source]▶
Cultural differences are big here too.

Asian American culture leads to personalities which are not considered leadership-worthy in WASP culture. You're not alone there. The same is true for people from most cultures -- African immigrants, Eastern European immigrants, and most other types of immigrants behave in ways which are too foreign.

It's not universal -- there are individuals who manage to culturally adapt. But they're a minority, and it's an uphill battle.

Actual performance tends to be excellent, but that's not how leaders get chosen in most organizations. Leadership decisions are almost entirely about perception: Do your employees like you and relate well to you? Your superiors? That has a huge cultural component, and a lot of room for racism.

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1. mannykannot ◴[25 Apr 20 04:25 UTC] No.22975554[source]▶
> Asian American culture leads to personalities which are not considered leadership-worthy in WASP culture.

On the face of it, there is no way to tell if this is the actual cause of a phenomenon or merely a rationalization for an irrational bias.

One might invoke Occam's razor at this point, and say that the simplest explanation - that it is the actual cause, not a rationalization for something else - is the most probable one, but:

"The same is true for people from most cultures -- African immigrants, Eastern European immigrants, and most other types of immigrants behave in ways which are too foreign."

- the more one advances this point, the more clearly it becomes obvious that foreign-ness is the one common factor in all the cases.

Based on your last paragraph, I think we are both making essentially the same point.

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2. Retric ◴[25 Apr 20 12:55 UTC] No.22977735[source]▶
There are differences between cultural and racial bias. Namely, you can fake cultural fit.

It’s common for people to adopt a persona for climbing the corporate ladder, because it works. Looking at people from any racial or ethnic background who succeed and you find they fit the organization they climbed. Not all US companies fit the corporate MBA mold, but it’s extremely common and tends to take over most companies as they age or grow.

I am not saying that’s a good thing, but learning the rules of the game are a basic prerequisite for winning.

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3. bJGVygG7MQVF8c ◴[25 Apr 20 14:43 UTC] No.22978458[source]▶
Except that this pattern doesn't hold for Indian immigrants. (The research is out there, I invite you to go find it.) So it's not fundamentally about foreignness, but rather about the uneven distribution of certain qualities amongst different population groups.

One could argue that the problem is at root with the American? Western? structural bias in favor of extroversion and assertiveness, but you need de-mystify the dynamics involved in the first place to make that case clearly.

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4. mannykannot ◴[26 Apr 20 02:44 UTC] No.22983901[source]▶
I suspect that the issue here is that learning the rules, or otherwise playing according to the rules, is not necessarily enough in the face of deep-seated stereotypes.
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5. mannykannot ◴[26 Apr 20 02:50 UTC] No.22983926[source]▶
> Except that this pattern doesn't hold for Indian immigrants.

Except that the post I am replying to is not just about Indian inmmigrants, and, as I specifically make a point of, says the same about quite a wide range of origins.

> I invite you to go find it.

If you can't be bothered to support your case, I can't be bothered to do so for you - especially as I suspect that it is beside the point.

6. derangedHorse ◴[26 Apr 20 13:58 UTC] No.22987169[source]▶
No one wants to go on a wild-goose chase for research that you seem to think is credible but won’t even bother posting for discussion
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7. Retric ◴[26 Apr 20 14:24 UTC] No.22987353{3}[source]▶
Deep seated stereotypes play a role, but there are many forces at work. Most people are going to fail either way. That’s simply an outgrowth of a pyramid with fewer openings at the top.

If 10x more people of type X than type Y play the game and people of type X make it to he top 10x more frequently then that’s in line with this model. Currently there are for example 4 black CEO’s of Fortune 500 companies, which is really low.

But, if the proxy is say MBA graduates in 1990, that’s also low. Family connections further muddle the water etc. It’s clearly not a level playing field by any means.

8. bJGVygG7MQVF8c ◴[01 May 20 09:57 UTC] No.23040572{3}[source]▶
Then don't. Are you looking for my permission? There it is, you have it.

I think you misjudge my aims in posting.