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chipotle_coyote ◴[] No.21193515[source]
A lot of comments here seem to take as a given that banning any offensive speech in any forum leads inexorably to situations like this, where the "offensive speech" is political speech offensive to an authoritarian government. But this implies that it's impossible to distinguish between different kinds of "offensive" speech based on any meaningful criteria whatsoever, and this just seems to be fundamentally incorrect.

(1) Someone in a forum makes an "offensive" comment that's a show of support for political protestors which might anger an authoritarian government that not so incidentally happens to be of a country with a lot of customers of a product the forum supports;

(2) Someone in a forum makes an "offensive" comment that's an insulting attack on other users based on race, and the offensive nature is pretty clear to most people -- at least those who don't agree with the attack -- even if it happens to be prefaced with "I'm not racist, I'm just saying...".

These are not incredibly difficult to distinguish between. The commenter in the first case is supporting a marginalized group; the commenter in the second is attacking one. Punishing the commenter in the first case is kowtowing to an authoritarian government for baldly monetary reasons; punishing the commenter in the second case is showing support for an oppressed group in a way which is probably not going to bring you any financial benefit -- your company's accountants are not going to step in and say "you need to ban Pepe1488 for consistently sounding like a white supremacist because if you don't, it could cost us hundreds of millions of dollars" -- and whose PR benefit is, at the least, debatable. (The people in the oppressed group might love you, but if there is any press coverage whatsoever you are going to be inundated with threats.)

There's a principle involved here which can lead you to boycotting Blizzard, but that principle is "we should support the right of people to protest against their goverment." The principle isn't "you should never ban any offensive speech of any kind at any time because to do so inexorably leads you to taking the side of authoritarian governments." (Use a slippery slope argument once, and you'll use them everywhere.)

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jlawson ◴[] No.21194409[source]
>The commenter in the first case is supporting a marginalized group; the commenter in the second is attacking one.

It's remarkable that you apparently can't even conceive of how someone could not believe one or both of these statements.

You really can't see how someone could believe China is 'marginalized'?

You really can't see how someone could believe American blacks are either not marginal, or are marginal due to their own collective choices and thus not morally supreme?

Even going beyond these, you can't conceive of a morality or worldview where being 'marginalized' doesn't give one automatic, universal moral supremacy over everyone else. Try a worldview where loyalty to family and nation come first - ever heard of that? Or a achievement-oriented worldview, where doing great things is the goal instead of try to seek 'equity' for every group. Or even just a rationalist worldview, where differnet gender, race, national, ethnic, culture groups have characteristics that lead to their outcomes and it's not a giant moral equation you have to spend your life balancing because it's inevitable.

This is the problem with western discourse today. You're so deep in your left-bubble you can't even conceive of other viewpoints, so every conclusion of yours seems obvious and incontrovertible, so you must conclude anyone who disagrees is simply evil.

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1. landryraccoon ◴[] No.21195614[source]
> You really can't see how someone could believe China is 'marginalized'?

I am not sure what you mean by marginal here.

The fact that the NBA and Blizzard will apologize to China in a debased fashion is very strong evidence that China is in no way marginalized, but is actually in a position of incredible strength.

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2. haberman ◴[] No.21196782[source]
That is exactly what happens when people offend the groups considered "marginalized" in the USA.

Here is Kevin Hart apologizing repeatedly for offending the LGBT community: https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/celebrity/kevin-hart-apo...

Here is cyclist Jen Wagner-Assali apologizing for offending the trans community: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cycling-champion-apologizes-...

Here are YA authors apologizing profusely for offending people in Muslim and other "marginalized" communities: https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-...

I agree with you that it calls into question what it means to be "marginalized" when people from these groups can have the power to demand apologies when they are offended.

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3. landryraccoon ◴[] No.21196883[source]
You're playing both sides here. You want to use the progressive definition of marginalized when you want something to attack, but you aren't willing to say that's what marginalized actually means.

Right now, by calling China marginalized, it sounds like you agree with the definition given by those examples without staking a claim on what the word really means.

I'm asking you point blank: Are these groups marginalized? What are you actually trying to say? I don't think China is marginalized, the definition of "marginalized" does not include a nuclear armed, economically ascendant global nation state with the ability to make multi national corporations and interest groups apologize at a whim.

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4. haberman ◴[] No.21197193{3}[source]
I think the progressive definition of "marginalized" is fundamentally broken. It's used as a way of a priori deciding who is the aggressor and who is the victim in any conflict or disagreement, based solely on the identities of the people involved and their historical grievances as a group.

I reject this framework. But if you accept it, I think it's hard to rebut the idea that China is oppressed, given their history over the last 200 years. I certainly believe that they feel oppressed by the west. And my observation of progressive thought is that the feeling of being oppressed combined with legitimate historical grievance is an unimpeachable claim to be a marginalized party.

In particular, progressive thought seems to say that once marginalized, a group by definition continues to be marginalized until there is "equity." But China's economy still lags far behind that of the west on a per capita basis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... . So there is certainly no "equity" here.

I don't "want" to use the progressive definition of marginalized. I want to call it into question by pointing out its contradictions.

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5. landryraccoon ◴[] No.21197507{4}[source]
It seems like your actual goal is to reframe a discussion on China in order to attack progressives, something completely off topic from the original post.
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6. haberman ◴[] No.21197770{5}[source]
It was entirely on topic to the post I replied to (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21193515), which tried to introduce a clear distinction between progressives banning speech and China banning speech. I disagree.

I wish you would be willing to acknowledge that bans on speech that offend others are legitimately problematic, instead of redirecting the conversation to me personally.

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7. landryraccoon ◴[] No.21198619{6}[source]
The post you replied to didn't mention progressives. It drew a distinction in the abstract. You assigned the position the OP held to progressives.
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8. ◴[] No.21199341{7}[source]