←back to thread

1456 points pulisse | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
Show context
yungcoder ◴[] No.21187453[source]
Between this and the NBA's capitulation to making the Rockets' GM retract his statements on Hong Kong, at what point does appeasement just become acceptance of China's behavior? Sure, from the individual business' perspective they don't want to risk alienating the Chinese government and losing the Chinese market, but if China sees that they can get their way by simply threatening foreign companies then it will just embolden them to push for more concessions down the road. Quite frankly this all stinks of 1930s European appeasement policy and we all know how that turned out.
replies(13): >>21187691 #>>21187697 #>>21187713 #>>21187714 #>>21187719 #>>21187761 #>>21187898 #>>21187927 #>>21188093 #>>21188535 #>>21188658 #>>21188814 #>>21189201 #
spats1990 ◴[] No.21187719[source]
If you think 2019 China is that similar to 1930s Germany you should just come right out and say it, in my opinion. Let that argument stand on its merits.

If you didn't intend a parallel between 1930s Germany and 2019 China, there is, again in my opinion only, probably a better way of making your point.

replies(7): >>21187746 #>>21187747 #>>21187823 #>>21187866 #>>21187894 #>>21188933 #>>21188972 #
newshorts ◴[] No.21187746[source]
Agreed I think it’s a little over blown to compare.

That said, the social credit system is oddly reminiscent as well.

replies(2): >>21187795 #>>21187800 #
scrollaway ◴[] No.21187800[source]
Is it really overblown? Think about it.

It's not like Nazi germany only had followers because they were being mind-controlled. They were slow-boiling the frog back then as well and those who didn't want to notice could easily justify everything.

Well, sure, nazi germany ran concentration camps, keeping hundreds of thousands prisoner based on ethnicity and religion. It's not like China is doing that after all…

… right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

(Asking again: What's overblown about GP's comparison?)

replies(1): >>21188129 #
dirtyid ◴[] No.21188129[source]
>Is it really overblown? Think about it.

The problem is people in the west can only "think about it" in western lens which leads to readily accessible Godwin's Law. Chinese mental schema is not preoccupied with Hitler, most Chinese aren't familiar with Nazi death camps and the ones that are, don't attribute any particular significance to them because China is a 5000 year old country with a long legacy of extermination but also integration (i.e. manchu, mongol rulers got subsumed into broader Chinese culture).

Anyway, these are "vocational training camps" because ostensibly that's their goal - forced integration into society not elimination. Yes many people died under disastrous CPC policies, but in terms of genocide and extermination, the victims of CPC purges are constrained and not ethnically targeted. Compared to say FaLunGong pratitionres. CPC isn't aiming to eliminate and entire Chinese minority, 1 one of 55 officially recognized by the constitution, if only because they have to change the constitution to 54 after to reflect it and that would look bad for Xi domestically.

To contextualize what's happening in Xinjiang, it's useful to think of US melting pot analogy combined with brutal indigenous residential schools that are conceptually based around integration. Because that is literally the inspiration behind it. Yes, awkward golf clap for US inspiring Nazi and Chinese concentration camps.

Here's a brief write up of the politics behind the scene:

China is unofficially moving towards a 2nd generation MingZu (minority/ethnic) policy. The original ethnic policy was based around Soviet oblasts, autonomous regions with extra freedoms, i.e. tax break, family planning exceptions, affirmative action. These perks designed to ingratiate ethnic minorities to Chinese rule have not maintained serenity, post 2009 violent uprisings in Tibet and XinJiang which has led some thinkers to believe that ethnic autonomy and local identity has backfired. One of the extreme but prominent thinker was important at United Work. Forgot whom. Supposedly Xi pushed back on the idea initially. But the ground campaign happening now speaks for itself despite no official policy shift or changes in article 4 of the constitution (minority rights).

The new MingZu policy emphasized national unity, instead of local identity. The new focus is on GuoZu (State race), abandon individual identity to one national identity. HanYu (Han language) / PuTongHua (common language) has been renamed to GuoYu (national language) in official documentation. In response to Uyghur intellectuals / upper class teaching Uyghur languages to their kids, promotion of ethnic languages has (supposedly) been internally elevated to great evil status after extremist, separatism, terrorism. Increasing Han migration to autonomous regions to promote ethnic mingling. New restrictions on religion that will likely touch all religions.

Ironically, the proponents drew inspiration from US melting pot analogy that aims to treat everyone equally and eventual integration. Contrasting to the current 'salad bowl' approach - citing the division seen in extreme multiculturalism (European Islamic enclaves I think) as a point of failure. There's a lot going on: equalizing - read: repressing - legally "privileged" minorities back to equality status of the average Han without acknowledging other structural privileges of being Han in a Han dominated culture. Something, something, intersectionality.

Edit: As always, I have to clarify that I do not endorse what is happening in XinJiang. I think CPC is capable of doing better without committing mistakes the west already learned. My prediction is something like the cultural revolution / cultural genocide that will last years and a few generations from now if the situation stabilizes the CPC will express some remorse and platitudes for past mistakes under different leadership (sounds familiar as a Canadian). The difference is XinJiang will be better off compared to the prognosis in the west because China has the infrastructure capability to uplift XinJiang living standards. Contrast to the shithole reserves without plumbing and dependent on water boiling in Canada.

My biggest concern is that the CPC will probably pull it off, and the model for rapid integration will be exported around the world. Why do you think authoritarian muslim countries support China? The western narrative is Chinese $$$, but I think rulers of these countries are waiting on the sidelines trying (and secretly hoping) that the XinJiang experiment will work - you can easily swap out desecularizing with secularizing. Also see how sentiment towards muslim immigrants are shifting in Europe to see another possible future application. It wouldn't be the same of course, but vocation training center with European characteristics is more than plausible to me.

Edit2: To add, one of the fundamental characteristics about Chinese growth/rejuvenation whatever is doing big things fast. Integration is something that takes generations to cultivate, but of course China going to try to rush it. It worked in industrial widgets, it worked in academic papers, it's crazy to think it will work on hearts and mind, but who knows, maybe it will. Xi himself is a product of work camps. He's a believer.

replies(2): >>21188332 #>>21188870 #
1. jjcc ◴[] No.21188870{3}[source]
Great insight although some information is missing like why the MingZu policy changed. At least you mentioned the old MingZu policy which most western journalists hide intentionally or unintentionally to match their narrative based on their beliefs. The real issue is quite complicated and might not be clear after decades.
replies(1): >>21189136 #
2. dirtyid ◴[] No.21189136[source]
Policy change was in response to violent 2008 Tibetan and 2009 Ürümqi / Uyghur riots (~200 deaths). The blame was placed on then relatively unfiltered western social networking sites which solidified ethic identity that was nominally accepted under old MingZu policy. In the case of Uyghurs, easy dissemination of foreign Islamic texts led to pockets of radicalization (Turkistan Islamic Party) turned violent extremism. Incidentally post riot was when Facebook and twitter was blocked. Western narrative was information control, but additional domestic rationale was to prevent escalation of violence since the riots targeted Han Chinese, and Han nationalists (who hated minority affirmative action privileges - we truthfully are cut from same cloth) were calling for violent retaliation. Basically, the CPC wanted to filter the internet to prevent race wars.

Twitter and Facebook took the moral high road only to be confronted with the same problems now and converging onto the same solutions. Anyway these incidents led Chinese thinkers to reexamine the ethnic policy based around oblast multiculturalism + carrots which was suppose to produce stability but ended up challenging serenity. Now the policy is forced integration via work camps. Somewhat tried and true. Chen QuanGuo was appointed Party Secretary of Tibet, he began security policies that enabled Tibet to see some of the highest GDP growth in the country. He was moved to Xinjiang a 5 years later to replicate his work, expanded the security architecture into the camps (however people want to label it) and increased anti-terrorism efforts. There's been no attacks since his reign, many before. Got promoted to political bureau member for his work.

MingZu policy change is not well known, mostly information disseminated between China scholars. TBH most western reporting on China is naive because western news room simply don't have sufficient assets covering China which is already a very difficult reporting environment. It doesn't help that foreign desks are full of white dudes who can't speak the language. Regardless, since the subject is justifiably mass human rights abuse, I think people don't really care about nuance even why something is happening, just that it is. Which is fair, you can't expect much on Chinese reporting when folks exposure to Chinese affairs outside of MSM are two youtubers playing the clickbait game. It's a ridiculous state of affairs.

I don't know about future timeline, Xinjiang is 7x larger than Tibet which took 5 years and is still ongoing. CPC probably hoping to do a reeducation "lite" policy in HK via CPC textbooks. They blame the current protests on a generation raised by British civics textbooks. I think the summation is, we focused too much on 2 systems instead of 1 country. Salad Bowl instead of melting pot.