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628 points nodea2345 | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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program_whiz ◴[] No.21125050[source]
Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to take all property rights and freedoms like that -- I think taking to the streets, and even resorting to violence might be necessary (otherwise the powers-that-be have no reason to listen to a bunch of people standing in a street hundreds of miles away).
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UIZealot ◴[] No.21125396[source]
> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to take all property rights and freedoms like that

Do you know anything about China and Hong Kong? What exactly do you think China has done in Hong Kong?

EDIT: Down-voters, can you answer the question? Or are you just going to try to bury it with down-votes?

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ripperdoc ◴[] No.21129631[source]
I DO know something about China and Hong Kong, having lived/worked/studied in them, and having half of my family there. And of course, as in any of these things, nuance is the first thing that goes out the window.

First, although Hongkong has been peaceful in the last decades, it has had some pretty severe rioting before, in the 60s and at various other times. But what we see now is a drawn out result of the 1997 hand-over. There are many factors. One is that China (and the colluding business interests) have moved step by step in opposite direction of democracy. Another is more about psychology - Hongkong used to be a star in the region, but it's now in Chinas shadow and more and more dependent on the mainland, even "overrun" in certain ways. So there is a built up frustration in Hongkong around both of these things.

China has not yet brought down the hammer on Hongkong, and they have not removed property rights and the overall freedom. Sadly, these protests are more likely to bring the dictatorship closer. But all revolutions are like that. Almost inevitably they turn violent (on both sides). The government feel the need to push back harder to quell the fire. In any conflict, both sides lose. And yes, almost inevitably

Now, that's the nuance. Then you have the simple fact that China is not a democracy, it's an oppressive surveillance one-party state. All of the democratic world has a certain moral obligation to either attempt to transform or to oppose China. Unfortunately, most have gotten in too deep and have too much to lose on criticising China. Therefore the global response is weak, and large corporations tend to follow the money rather than the principle. This is very sad.

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1. UIZealot ◴[] No.21133423[source]
> China has not yet brought down the hammer on Hongkong, and they have not removed property rights and the overall freedom.

Thank you!

> Sadly, these protests are more likely to bring the dictatorship closer.

That's my fear as well. I'm all for peaceful protests, but I'm afraid the violent protesters are signing the death wish of freedom in Hong Kong.

> Then you have the simple fact that China is not a democracy, it's an oppressive surveillance one-party state.

(I'll ignore the "oppressive surveillance" you snuck in there, as that's not an exclusive to China, and many democracies are much further along in that regard.)

And that makes China automatically bad...how? China has on balance done less evil and more good than most of the democracies of the world. Can we be honest with ourselves and keep an open mind?

> All of the democratic world has a certain moral obligation to either attempt to transform or to oppose China.

China certainly should be kept in check by fellow world powers. But let's not get carried away with mindless ideology and dogma.