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628 points nodea2345 | 23 comments | | HN request time: 0.703s | source | bottom
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nvahalik ◴[] No.21125093[source]
> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator

This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

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Fezzik ◴[] No.21126073[source]
I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion. I truly do not get it.
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bhupy ◴[] No.21126088[source]
The US (with its support of the military) has been at war in the Middle East for nearly 2 decades now with insurgents.

The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself.

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josephdviviano ◴[] No.21126327[source]
The fact is that the dictator would still win. The rebellious citizenry would live a life of absolute misery, just as those in the middle east do.

The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. If there was ever a true US dictator, the 2nd amendment would mostly be used by the oppressed to rob, attack, and oppress one another.

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daenz ◴[] No.21126856[source]
>The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles.

Let me make sure I understand your basic premise: the ability to defend yourself against a tyrannical dictatorship made sense until the government developed better technology, now it's pointless so just give up your guns?

Aside from being completely contrary to the American spirit of defending yourself from tyranny, it's based on the bogus premise that the advanced military technology can be used effectively against its own people. Where is the military going to fire those "computer guided missiles?" Into every rural home and every urban apartment window of everyone they suspect has guns, with thousands of civilian collateral casualties? Are tanks and fighter jets going to roll in and level entire economic hubs like cities? Are they going to destroy their own infrastructure? Are you envisioning "the rebellion" would set up a nice neat base in some remote location for the military to aim its tech at? Do you think the real men and women of the military would follow orders to destroy its own hometowns and families? How long before regional coups? How big do you think the US military is, relative to the armed civilian population? You are also aware that soldiers and police wear recognizable uniforms, while "the rebellion" doesn't?

I don't think you've thought this through.

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1. Ancalagon ◴[] No.21127367[source]
Well said, I am very tired of these blasé remarks about the second amendment. Sure, the people don’t have tanks, but when the people and the guns out number the tanks 1000:1, and the tank driver doesn’t really want to fight, and those 1000 guns are all playing geurrilla tactics, I like to imagine the people stand a chance.
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2. sjwright ◴[] No.21127460[source]
And if you could keep all your guns safely locked away until then, that would be great.

–thanks, everyone else.

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3. Ancalagon ◴[] No.21127508[source]
I know you were being funny, but I actually wholly agree with this statement. Every gun owner should have safes/locks for their guns.
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4. sjwright ◴[] No.21127594{3}[source]
I was being serious. I don’t have a problem with responsible gun ownership.

Switzerland is a good model. The NRA loves to point at rates of Swiss gun ownership. If the USA implemented all of Switzerland’s gun laws I think you’d be okay.

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5. homonculus1 ◴[] No.21128600[source]
We do! The number of guns used in crime is a statistical whisper compared to the hundreds of millions that are in legal, peaceable private ownership and circulation in the US alone. The empirical view is vastly different than the sensational media representation, which (due to attention and advertising incentives) cherrypicks the extremely rare worst-case events.
6. bdowling ◴[] No.21128613{4}[source]
If the USA implemented all of Switzerland’s gun laws, a citizen who passes a background check would be able to buy a newly-made full-automatic machine gun that is not allowed in the US outside of law enforcement or military. I’m not sure that is what you’re implying that you’d want.
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7. behringer ◴[] No.21129282{5}[source]
He's saying he wants to have the 2nd amendment while simultaneously having sane gun laws that are also enforced.
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8. solidsnack9000 ◴[] No.21129457{5}[source]
In Switzerland, people can not actually buy those guns, I don't think. They are issued by the military to pretty much everybody, that's true -- but they are kept on base these days, not at home.

One of the big differences between US gun culture and Swiss gun culture is that in the US we believe in a certain right "to enjoy arms", to keep and bear them in an undisciplined and disorganised way.

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9. aphextim ◴[] No.21129469[source]
Also take into account even if the military supported this theoretical dictator, many brothers in arms would NOT attack their fellow citizenry mindlessly. Sure there are those who will follow an order no matter what, but many folks would easily defect and help their fellow citizenry.
10. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.21129574{5}[source]
> If the USA implemented all of Switzerland’s gun laws, a citizen who passes a background check would be able to buy a newly-made full-automatic machine gun that is not allowed in the US outside of law enforcement or military.

But they wouldn't get access to the ammo needed to use those guns, which are stored in a central community location to combat an unwanted suicide problem (and aren't they semi-auto anyways?).

They also aren't bought, but part of ones' militia service. You know, that first clause of the USA's 2nd amendment that the pro gun lobby says to ignore.

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11. brightball ◴[] No.21129580{3}[source]
IMO every high school should be teaching first aid, gun safety, etc.
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12. rsync ◴[] No.21129752{5}[source]
"If the USA implemented all of Switzerland’s gun laws, a citizen who passes a background check would be able to buy a newly-made full-automatic machine gun that is not allowed in the US outside of law enforcement or military."

There are several things wrong with the above statement ...

First, in many (most) states of the United States, you can indeed purchase a fully automatic weapon / suppressor / grenade launcher / "destructive device" / etc. You'll have to pay a $200 transfer tax, submit to registration and fingerprinting and either get local CLEO signoff (Sheriff, Chief of Police) or purchase as a trust. Interestingly, you also sort of give up your fourth amendment rights as you grant the BATF right to check on the "device" at any time, for any reason.

Second, military (automatic) weapons in Switzerland are distributed by the Swiss Army and are kept in local possession under those auspices. A swiss cannot simply walk into a gun shop and buy an MP5 on a whim - regardless of background check.

Finally, and most importantly, Swiss gun laws were dramatically reworked in the past year as part of a general normalization of Swiss and EU regulations. There was a referendum and it passed - many aspects of Swiss gun laws that you may romanticize are now a thing of the past.

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13. mhroth ◴[] No.21130214{4}[source]
Then the USA should also enact obligatory military service. So that everyone would know how to use those guns. And see them as a grave responsibility, not just a right.
14. specialist ◴[] No.21130556{6}[source]
Other big differences are identity and profit motive.
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15. specialist ◴[] No.21130571{6}[source]
Slippery slope arguments preclude judgement.
16. solidsnack9000 ◴[] No.21130787{7}[source]
Profit motive?
17. pageandrew ◴[] No.21131031{6}[source]
The people are the militia. The first clause of the 2nd amendment doesn’t mean what you think it means.

Good article on this:

https://www.mic.com/articles/24210/gun-control-myth-the-seco...

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18. dsfyu404ed ◴[] No.21131108{6}[source]
>First, in many (most) states of the United States, you can indeed purchase a fully automatic weapon..

This is being dishonest. Since the registry was closed in '86 there have been no additional automatic weapons added to circulation (for civilian owners) so prices start around $10k. They are basically unobtainable for people who don't have $10k to drop on a hobby and don't want to commit a felony with a coat hanger.

19. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.21131226{7}[source]
The Swiss militia is setup to protect the country from foreign invaders. The 2nd amendment was setup exactly for this same reason, as the founding fathers were thinking about the British when they wrote it.

Of course, the text is vague enough that everyone will simply draw out whatever meaning they find reinforces their biases. Given that the most fervent upholders of the amendment today were draft dodgers back in the day, it is safe to say that protection of country is no longer important in their reading of the amendment.

At any rate, even if we accept that the clause is prefatory, that doesn’t make it meaningless, it has an effect on how gun rights should be maintained (so that the populace can overthrow the government or protect against foreign invaders, it is not protected for self defense, sport hunting, target practice, etc...).

20. nkurz ◴[] No.21131265{6}[source]
I like most of your answer, but didn't like that you silently dropped "newly-made" from the OP's criteria. You're welcome to argue that it doesn't matter, and just as welcome to argue that this is a good thing, but it seems odd to avoid mentioning that there is no legal way for a US citizen to purchase a fully automatic weapon manufactured after 1986 --- and that guns not subject to this ban are in very short supply and thus very expensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
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21. rsync ◴[] No.21139833{7}[source]
You are correct - I did indeed miss the "newly-made" qualifier.

For the sake of argument, however, a brand new rifle chassis mated with an RDIAS seems to fit the bill, yes ?

22. sjwright ◴[] No.21142911{4}[source]
Normalisation of guns is part of the problem.
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23. brightball ◴[] No.21149939{5}[source]
Is it? Because they’re already everywhere and statistically speaking there’s a level of responsible ownership that qualifies as statistically perfect (> 99.99).

With the level of saturation, not providing safety education is the most irresponsible course.