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132 points pseudolus | 15 comments | | HN request time: 0.903s | source | bottom
1. coliveira ◴[] No.19471036[source]
China is doing what is a great advancement for the world: integrating east and west, and in the process bringing the long forgotten areas in the middle east into the world trading order. The more investment in the Silk road, the more we will have a robust economic system integrating countries that until now were forgotten by the previous world order.
replies(3): >>19471056 #>>19471076 #>>19471081 #
2. dmix ◴[] No.19471056[source]
They weren't 'forgotten' they were made irrelevant through technology (airplanes, shipping containers, etc) and geo-political trends (the fall of the ottoman empire).

As great as it sounds on paper there are quite a few economists who are skeptical about the ROI from all of these investments.

But I do like how bold it is, which you rarely find in western countries (large scale infrastructure projects). They can barely build a stretch of road without it costing 10x the budget and getting caught up in years of political horse trading.

replies(3): >>19471222 #>>19471584 #>>19472342 #
3. NicoJuicy ◴[] No.19471076[source]
A train road can't handle economic scale like ships can. The belt is a excuse for modern colonization through debts
replies(2): >>19471106 #>>19471131 #
4. Gpetrium ◴[] No.19471081[source]
The idea looks good on paper, it will be important to keep an eye on the underlying actions that are made to ensure it is not used for nefarious reasons. This part is specially difficult when transparency is lacking.
replies(1): >>19471199 #
5. coliveira ◴[] No.19471106[source]
Trains are still the most fuel economical way to transport products through long distances. And trains can also transport loads to intermediary locations in a much more efficient way than ships.
replies(1): >>19471124 #
6. NicoJuicy ◴[] No.19471124{3}[source]
No, they are not.

Ships try to deliver cargo as deep in the country as possible. Then trucks take over ( Europe), because of different destinations.

You think they are joining the world trade order, I just see an expensive debt trap that won't even change 0,1% in a countries trade

replies(1): >>19471459 #
7. echevil ◴[] No.19471131[source]
Trains are way faster than ships and handles much bigger scale than airplanes
replies(1): >>19471171 #
8. NicoJuicy ◴[] No.19471171{3}[source]
2 weeks by train is still no alternative for planes.

2 weeks is also no replacement for ships, because of scale. It's something in the middle where there is no alternative.

It's also insignificant alternative in the scale against ships.

9. chibg10 ◴[] No.19471199[source]
Right, I don't quite understand why there's so much secrecy around OBOR projects if the CCP really believes these deals are a partly altruistic and fully mutually beneficial agreement. It would seem to be be in their interest to publicize the terms if that were the case.

Especially given the CCP's documented history with bribing foreign leaders to agree to similar deals.

replies(1): >>19472982 #
10. sn41 ◴[] No.19471222[source]
Some of it is probably a debt trap. The Djibouti port and Hambantota are perhaps warning signs of things to come.
11. yorwba ◴[] No.19471459{4}[source]
The advantage of trucks over trains isn't as large as you seem to believe. E.g. at the port of Hamburg, the majority of cargo (55%) is transported onwards by truck, but the share of trains (42.8%) isn't that much smaller. https://www.hafen-hamburg.de/en/statistics/modalsplit
replies(1): >>19475262 #
12. Emma_Goldman ◴[] No.19471584[source]
'There are quite a few economists who are skeptical about the ROI from all of these investments'.

Yes but the BRI is not designed solely for economic gain, but to lay the basis of a new Sino-centric order.

The closest comparison is with the Marshall plan. The US spent huge sums to rebuild Western Europe, countries that by the 1970s began to undercut the US economy. But it was essential to the post-war US order, the defeat of Soviet Union, and other long-range strategic goals.

13. ricardobeat ◴[] No.19472342[source]
Anyone who has bought chinese goods on AliExpress will disagree :) The journey takes < 14 days (vs up to 60 by sea) and volume growth has been dramatic in the past couple years.

> Over the past five years, China’s trade in goods with countries along the Belt and Road has exceeded $5.5 trillion

14. coliveira ◴[] No.19472982{3}[source]
Did they bribe the previous US presidents to sign business deals during the last 30 years? I think it is entirely inappropriate to think that briberies are the only reason to do business with China.
15. NicoJuicy ◴[] No.19475262{5}[source]
In all my statements, the statement of trucks vs trains was irrelevant. Your numbers side with the fact that after harbor, trucks are more popular.

It's that I call bullshit on the one road one belt.

That trains vs container ships is irrelevant. Trains lose big time

That's it's more a "build useless infrastructure that you otherwise can't afford and that Chinese will build with no locals" debt trap for countries to China.