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323 points plusCubed | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.513s | source
1. jacques_chester ◴[] No.18736458[source]
> they said "we'll see what we can do" and that "refunds are impossible".

If a judge finds they've established themselves as a trustee, this argument won't fly. In fact it will make a quite spectacular and expensive thudding sound.

The trustee-beneficiary relationship arises from the situation and does not require a contract to be formed. If you are the legal owner of assets "for the benefit of" someone else, congratulations, you are probably a trustee.

Why does this matter?

Because trusteeship comes with a fiduciary duty. Fiduciary duty is a heavy burden. If it's applied to Brave it will create merry havoc: a pile of money that they cannot touch, under any circumstances. A pile of money that they must return, if it cannot be forwarded to the intended recipient. A pile of money that cannot be mixed with anything else in any way. The requirement to put the interests of the beneficiary ahead of their own. And on and on.

It's an attempt to be clever at marketing, to create an incentive to sign up. But as a legal situation it's a swamp full of unstable turd grenades.

... of course, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Maybe Brave found a friendly jurisdiction or a quirk in trusts law that they can squeeze through. But given the history of startups wishing that law doesn't real, I kinda doubt it.

replies(2): >>18736491 #>>18745450 #
2. jacques_chester ◴[] No.18736491[source]
By way of disclaimer, I've watched this segment for years because I've sometimes intended to enter it myself on a similar-but-not-identical business model. But being aware of the concept of a trust, I've avoided this idea entirely and watched previous failed attempts (eg Readability) with great interest.
3. jacques_chester ◴[] No.18745450[source]
Bonus round: https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1076198964607610880

Brave

1. Collects tokens from User A for the benefit of Website B

2. By design, loses track of who gave them which tokens

3. But somehow does not lose track of the tokens when it's time to put them into their own general ledger

4. Which they say they will do, mingling what are probably funds from constructive trusts into their own funds.

"Oh but it's OK!", comes the counterargument, "Our Terms of Service allow us to do this". The problem is that Terms of Service can say anything, you can sign a contract for anything, and still wind up as a trustee for a trust you created through your actions. And one thing that a trustee will be completely buggered by is appropriating trust assets for their own use. It's the kind of thing that the legal system enthusiastically tries to convert into glowing craters.

This whole scene is going to be extensively carpet bombed with popcorn, as a legal situation it is shaping up as disaster heaped high on hilarity.

Again: I am not a lawyer, but in Brave's position I would be looking for some.