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2024 points randlet | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.284s | source
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jacquesm ◴[] No.17517514[source]
Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot.

Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all.

Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule.

Not the nicest moment in the history of FOSS, I wonder what kind of a mess will ensue when Linus steps down.

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tptacek ◴[] No.17517820[source]
What are they supposed to do? Python is bigger than GvR. A pretty big chunk of the tech industry depends on it. We were probably long past the point where a "BDFL" was healthy --- not because of any moral issue, but because over the long term the market is going to dictate where Python goes and how it grows, and people should stop kidding themselves that it might be otherwise.

I don't think it's at all unseemly that people involved in the Python project respond to GvR's LOA announcement by working out continuity. As someone who has to interact with a lot of Python code professionally, that's exactly the response I'd hope for.

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xg15 ◴[] No.17518018[source]
> but because over the long term the market is going to dictate where Python goes and how it grows

The market gave us the absolute mess that is HTML/CSS/Javascript today, so I'm sincerely hoping the Python community will keep agreeing on some greater design principles instead of leaving everything to market forces and pragmatism.

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sneakermoney ◴[] No.17518983[source]
"The market" took over after a long period of "design by committee" that had "strong design principles"[1] resulting in something that was both inadequate for what people wanted to do and didn't evolve at a promising pace (likely because of said principles).

When the market did take over, the problem was that those poor foundations weren't thrown out completely. You can only do so much by strapping turbines on a camel (no offense to camels). At least we can actually write (mediocre) applications with HTML/CSS/JS now.

The other part of the mess is caused by the ever-growing amount of trend-hopping junior developers that want to try out new things - and their superiors letting them do it. If the foundation wasn't so bad, there would be less incentive to try and re-invent anything. Other platforms are fully market-driven, they didn't produce such a mess, because the market rewards stability (hence the low initial adoption rates of Python 3).

[1] https://www.w3.org/People/Bos/CSS-variables

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xg15 ◴[] No.17519452[source]
> "The market" took over after a long period of "design by committee" that had "strong design principles"[1]

Yes, but a committee (or a community if that term has too many bad connotations) can at least argue about the design principles and on occasion decide to change them using a well-defined process (e.g. rough consensus or voting).

> When the market did take over, the problem was that those poor foundations weren't thrown out completely.

The original plan of the W3C TAG was to pull the foundations and make a fresh start with XHTML2. The browser vendors objected to that and chose to instead evolve the original HTML into what we have today.

> The other part of the mess is caused by the ever-growing amount of trend-hopping junior developers that want to try out new things...

But that's the point. Those trend-hopping junior developers and their bosses are the market: If you view programming languages as products, those are the early-adopters, one of the generally most sought-after part of the customer base. If you want to be 100% market-driven, you have to listen to them.

> ...because the market rewards stability

The market apparently didn't bother much that HTML is now a "living standard", browser release cycles are measured in weeks and generally a software is considered dead if it doesn't receive any more updates.

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1. sneakermoney ◴[] No.17519567[source]
> Yes, but a committee (or a community if that term has too many bad connotations) can at least argue about the design principles and on occasion decide to change them using a well-defined process (e.g. rough consensus or voting).

The underlying assumption here must be that this somehow leads to better results overall, but where's the evidence for that? "Design by committee" has a negative connotation for a reason.

> The original plan of the W3C TAG was to pull the foundations and make a fresh start with XHTML2. The browser vendors objected to that and chose to instead evolve the original HTML into what we have today.

That's because "the market" doesn't want things to break. Like I said, it should've been thrown out, but for obvious reasons it wasn't. The point is, you can't blame "the market" for having created the mess in the first place.

> But that's the point. Those trend-hopping junior developers and their bosses are the market...

They are a force within that market and it just so happens that so many new people come into the industry because "web stuff" is needed now, but it won't be growing like that forever. These young programmers will grow old and tired (and so will their bosses) and at that point conservatism will settle in, like it has in many other areas as well. It's a market fluctuation.

> The market apparently didn't bother much that HTML is now a "living standard", browser release cycles are measured in weeks and generally a software is considered dead if it doesn't receive any more updates.

The pace at which new browser features are adopted is actually rather slow, but more importantly, old stuff usually doesn't break. For example, jQuery might be outdated from a developer perspective, but it still powers a lot of stuff.