Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil.

But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones.

Or there would be protests daily in western capitals about the sheer unimaginable scale of destruction, devastation and millions of families destroyed and lives lost in the middle east starting from Iraq to Libya and now Syria done purely to further geo-political and financial interests.

But that is handwaved away as 'necessary' somehow. The fact is people don't even care about the poor and suffering in their own cities and countries, so how can they care about an unknown people in another part of the world? It's posturing, China's problems will be only be fixed by those chinese who truly care for their people and country.

I don't think whataboutism, or exhortations to appreciate the complexity of global politics carry more value than the basic, straightforward observation that what happened at Tiananmen was horrible and unforgiveable, and should forever be held against China.

People don't have the energy to protest everything, because we're poor, exhausted, distracted, and yes, often confused and hypocritical. It doesn't mean the observations we make about atrocities are insincere or untrue or that they are unworthy of attention. And independently of our sincerity or consistency, I think the observation is simply true on its merits anyway, and it's bewildering (to me at least) why anything other than that should matter.

There's a very easy way anyone can start fighting against a brutal regime like this:

Stop buying stuff from China. Just stop. Support local made.

Globalization is going to happen thanks to technology. But we get to decide what terms it happens on. Recollecting these sorts of events can be opportunities for asserting jingoistic sense of superiority. Or it can be an opportunity for encouraging and shaming everyone towards a just, humanist moral framework.

My family comes from Bangladesh. In the 1970s, Bangladesh declared independence from Pakistan, and enshrined principles like secularism into its constitution. But in the 1990s, Islam was made the official religion, women were forced to don head coverings, etc. Today, Islamists are killing journalists who espouse the same secularist principles the country was founded on. As a Bangladeshi-American, I want Americans to criticize these things! It pains me when (often well-intentioned, but misguided) people apologize for and accommodate these things. It's a slap in the face of people in Bangladesh who are fighting for a more just society.

That is not to say I don't want Americans to feel shame for the bad things America did. But, at least on the east coast, at least, I grew up hearing about all the evils of slavery and the genocide of indigenous people. We can try to help the world move forward without forgetting that we also have things in our history for which we need to feel shame. I think Americans broadly recognize that.

Better not do anything with computers then. China is completely integrated in global supply chains, what you want is probably impossible at this point without giving up whole swathes of industry

None of the people involved in the decision to use violence against the Tiananmen square protesters are still in power. Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever? And where are we going to find the energy to hold this grudge along with all the other unforgivable acts throughout history given that we're already so poor, exhausted, distracted and confused?

> Or there would be protests daily in western capitals about the sheer unimaginable scale of destruction, devastation and millions of families destroyed and lives lost in the middle east starting from Iraq to Libya and now Syria done purely to further geo-political and financial interests.

My parents and wife were born in Syria. I lived and studied there for 5 years, and spent some time in then-liberated Eastern Aleppo in 2013.

I, and most Syrians I know, despise Obama not because he said Assad should step down; we despise him for not following through, or at least getting out of the way and letting regional players help Syrians get rid of Assad, and kick out Iran's sectarian militias.

Western powers are responsible for a lot of horror and misery around the world. But unlike Iraq in 2003, Libya and Syria in 2011 experienced genuine popular uprisings. Most of the death and destruction was caused not by the West, but by Gaddafi and Assad.

Despite what Noam Chomsky seems to believe, the West is not the source of all evil in the world.

OK, so to take just one example, say 50 or so Tiananmens died in the latest US appalling invasion/massacre of Iraq. So that was 50x as horrible and unforgiveable, and should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way? Something comparable happened every few years of the last century. I get the feeling most people reading this will hold more against me for saying this, than against the US for its countless slaughtered 10,000s. Well, I guess it horrifies Americans because they empathetically imagine the US government not killing brown people in other countries by the million, but its own people, and that is scary.

Is that what Noam Chomsky seems to believe? That would be stupid and crazy, wouldn't it? Half-witted.

He doesn't say it explicitly, but if you follow him enough you get that impression.

OK, thank you for explaining.

>Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever?

For starters, whoever decides to delete references to Tiananmen from the Chinese internet, and the surrounding bureaucratic system that permits (or probably demands) it to happen. Whoever orders the media to omit reference to it every anniversary. Whoever continues to order that parents and/or spouses of the victims are placed under house arrest or removed from their homes on the anniversary.

But even replying that way feels kind of absurd, because it individualizes actions that are best understood as expressions the authoritarian regime itself, and it dismisses as a mere "grudge" the kind of thing anyone should remember in the name of maintaining a historical conscience.

We shouldn't forgive because it's not the type of thing that somehow becomes more forgivable with the passage of time. And most importantly of all, we shouldn't forgive because China is largely unrepentant and in every significant way they are still the same regime as the one that carried out the events in the summer of 1989.

edit: And as for who should hold a "grudge," I would say those of us with the energy to participate in these conversations for the purpose of minimizing the historical legacy of Tiananmen have plenty of energy to spare. Both for remembering what it was, and for remembering that the forces that allowed it to happen are still with us in the form of a regime that continues to jail and torture human rights lawyers.

I don’t disagree with you, but I think the fundamental difference here is that American invasions are a) acknowledged b) considered fairly negatively by virtually everyone, even by those who initially supported them. It is a publically discussed issue with multiple acceptable opinions which range from “expensive quagmire” to “massive human rights violation.”

Tiannamen Square, conversely, was covered up, erased from history and is essentially unknown or uncared about by the majority of the Chinese population.

Right. And the reason we keep historical events like these in mind is so that we learn lessons from them, understand clearly that they are wrong, so that we don't reproduce the political and intellectual climates that allowed them to happen.

We should forgive. It's not an easy thing to do. The notion of forgiving was a revolutionary idea 2000 years ago, and in spite of lying at the bedrock of western morality, it's still a revolutionary idea today.

The regime in China also brought 650 million people out of extreme poverty in span of a generation. Somewhat unprecedented in world history, and definitely not something that gets dredged up time and time again to reinforce a distorted narrative. Rip the bandaid off that one and there's no wound underneath to pick at :(

"Stop buying things from [x]" probably hasn't been an effective mantra for several decades. The U.S., E.U., China, Japan, and other nations are all intractably linked in the global supply chain economy.

Have you lived in China? Your suggestion, if taken seriously by a lot of people, would just further harm ordinary Chinese people who are already being harmed by a parasitic government over which they have no control.

When some effort is made to stop erasing history and start learning lessons from it, we can talk about forgiveness.

Until then "forgiveness" is an aloof and silly gesture that serves only to whitewash history and trivialize the concept of forgiveness.

Edit (since I can't reply any further): @Fricken: you're right. I feel perfectly comfortable making "overtures" that we not whitewash the massacre of 10,000 civilians. If that's to be redeemed it's going to take a lot more than vague exhortations about how the world is complicated.

History is broad and complex and multifaceted. People who dedicate their lives to the study of history still feel like they don't have a clear picture. Yet here you are, acting like your shit don't drink, examining history through a tiny little pinhole, while making overtures about how it's wrong to whitewash it.

Tim Cook assures us he is working hard to improve conditions...

this is about as good as it will get. private industry will try to hide and/or paper over the abuses and we will continue to honor them as "progressives"

> It is a publically discussed issue with multiple acceptable opinions which range from “expensive quagmire” to “massive human rights violation.”

It is publicly discussed, but it is also drowned in a flood of other information.

There is something especially nefarious about your own government taking the opportunity to murder 10,000 of its protesting citizens because they conveniently pooled together in one location. Is that not worth talking about? Especially when that government is still in power, and covering up that event?

How was Obama supposed to follow through? How was the US in the way?

Sorry for derailing the thread here, but this is interesting.

Nothing glenstein said was incorrect. Why are you reacting in such a hostile manner? You seem to have an axe to grind.

> should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way?

Yes! Of course. Do you think those of us who think Tiananmen Square was an atrocity that should not have been forgotten are waving away slavery or the current American prison system as forgiveable?

We’re not. America’s sins are many and we are squaring up to those too.

I have a hard time believing all of you posting this are actual HN readers and not paid political operatives. I don’t know how anyone could read this board and think none of us are criticizing the U.S.

The crimes of all nations will be laid bare to history. No one will be spared. There guilty will pay and then history will move on. Not before.

Just because it want effective before doesn’t mean it won’t be effective in the future. It’s never been easier to buy local than it is now. It’s never been easier to organize boycotts than it is now.

How would it harm them? Trickle-down economics?

erm Assad is actually good for Syria.

Assad has popular support of the people in Syria. He's been defeating ISIS. Why would you want to oust him?

Some examples:

-Obama said, on multiple occassions, that Assad using chemical weapons would be a "red line". Assad crossed it. Obama did not strike Assad.

-Syrians asked repeatedly for a no-fly zone like that imposed against Gaddafi, to prevent Assad from pulverizing residential neighborhoods. Obama refused.

-Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey wanted to send serious weapons to those struggling against Assad. Obama essentially vetoed any such steps.

> I have a hard time believing all of you posting this are actual HN readers and not paid political operatives.

I think there's a HN guideline about assuming good faith.

Not sure what to say to that. I don't know who 'all of you posting this' means. Me? and who? People write stuff you disagree with, so you find it hard to believe they actually think that?

Again, you just mention US internal matters. That wasn't what I was talking about. The US has done its repressing/slaughtering all over the world, at least the last 120 years, not mainly internally, so that's why I talk about that. Americans it seems, as in your comment, prefer ignoring the foreign policy slaughters/bullying/destruction. Well, imagine 9/11 x100 or x1000.

No idea what your last paragraph means. Sounds kind of biblical or something. There's no reason to believe the world has, done or will work like that.

(Edit) Oh, and I forgot to mention - that 'expensive quagmire' is 'acceptable opinion' seems to me obscene. As if the main problem with (among other things) mass slaughter and killing children with uranium bullets that remain and cause birth defects, is how much money it cost! And it seems a lot of Americans think 58,000 people died in Vietnam; that's the main figure for Vietnam War deaths I see in US media.

I am aware of the policy. I didn’t accuse you, I said your comment, and the volume of comments like it made it difficult for me to assume good faith. Which is true. I had to rewrite my comment to leave open the possibility you were being earnest.

I can list horrible things the US has done abroad... regime change in Central America, torture and destruction in Vietnam, thousands of drone killings up to the present day. The U.S. has done things at least as horrible as Tiananmen at home and abroad.

These things are openly discussed in this country every day. They are openly discussed on HN. I resent your accusation that I am ignoring them.

To expand my comment on history: due to the massive amount of data and metadata and metemetata being recorded, there is a class of open evil which will inevitably enter the public record. Maybe not this decade, maybe not next decade, but the information wants to be free. For a certain class of events which are both evil enough and open enough, they will be inevitably exposed.