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CDC gets list of forbidden words

(www.washingtonpost.com)
382 points js2 | 35 comments | | HN request time: 1.597s | source | bottom
1. somebodynew ◴[] No.15937313[source]
I probably need to preface this comment by making it clear that I'm against banning words and not a fan of Trump.

Banning "fetus" and "transgender" is completely indefensible as they're fairly neutral words with no obvious replacement. But for the rest, imagine that rather than a ban this was a style guide recommending against certain words. The common theme in the rest of them is that they don't convey much useful information but have a strong emotional charge.

You don't need to say something is evidence-based, just show the evidence. Coming right out and saying your position is evidence-based just sounds like a way to shut down any objections, even reasoned discussion, by casting the other side as being against science, evidence, or facts in general. This is similar for science-based, vulnerable, and diversity. If you're seen as being "anti-diversity" your argument doesn't matter because you're a misogynistic racist xenophobe.

Entitlements is charged term because you've cemented your position on social welfare pretty clearly just by referring to them as entitlements. It's not quite as bad as Derry/Londonderry , but it's certainly not neutral.

I don't think any of these words should be banned, but I do think it would be reasonable for government agencies to use neutral language and fully explain their thoughts rather than using emotionally charged buzzwords.

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2. justinpombrio ◴[] No.15937345[source]
> You don't need to say something is evidence-based, just show the evidence.

No, "evidence-based medicine" is a term of art. Maybe you could argue that it took too generic of a name, but that's the word we have. From Wikipedia:

"Although all medicine based on science has some degree of empirical support, EBM goes further, classifying evidence by its epistemologic strength and requiring that only the strongest types (coming from meta-analyses, systematic reviews, and randomized controlled trials) can yield strong recommendations; weaker types (such as from case-control studies) can yield only weak recommendations."

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3. gajomi ◴[] No.15937372[source]
"Diversity" may be an emotionally charged word, but also is a useful and common word in the biological sciences for a number of purposes. Of note especially is its common usage in ecology relevant to the CDC's goals of cataloging diverse bacterial and viral infections from clinical samples.
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4. thaumasiotes ◴[] No.15937422[source]
> Banning "fetus" and "transgender" is completely indefensible as they're fairly neutral words with no obvious replacement.

There's always "transexual", the older word for exactly the same concept.

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5. somebodynew ◴[] No.15937439[source]
I would argue that in a biological context the primary problem with neutral uses of "diversity" is vagueness. If a report indicates that they "collected a diverse range of bacteria for study", what is it that's different about them? Why not say "collected bacteria with various tolerances to extracellular ethanol concentration across three genera"? But like I said, an outright ban is silly, there are certainly places where it's the right word to use.
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6. bitL ◴[] No.15937461[source]
Maybe those words were identified as most likely to be used in manipulating others to get bigger budget and moving towards emotional response "one with a good heart" can't deny, so it's a nice playground for sociopaths to force their way through by shaming/guilt/etc.? So commonly used technique, one would laugh if it weren't so dangerous not to play along, risking mob lynching?

Frankly, I'd love to know what is the best defense technique for the scenario I outlined. Any ideas?

7. somebodynew ◴[] No.15937465[source]
Maybe I'm letting my own bias seep in now, but I consider "transgender" fairly neutral and "transsexual" overtly negative and likely intentionally used to agitate.
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8. somebodynew ◴[] No.15937478[source]
That's a fair point and a good example of why an outright ban is bad. I don't know if the administration intended to impact the term evidence-based medicine or if it's just collateral damage from a perceived abuse of the prefix evidence-based, but it's only the latter that I would stylistically discourage.
9. drcode ◴[] No.15937486[source]
As a doctor, it seems to me that at one time (maybe 10 years ago) it had a very specific meaning, but unfortunately the usage has degraded to the point where everything is "evidence based medicine" now, just like everything in business now is a "disruptor" or a "pivot".
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10. gizmo686 ◴[] No.15937490[source]
Suppose I were to grant that transgenderism is a mental illness. Why would we ban the word? The CDC's job is to deal with dissease, so this would put transgenderism squarely in the purview of what they should be talking about.

The reason to ban them from using the word is because you do not like what they say when they do talk about it.

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11. dates ◴[] No.15937509[source]
what about apple bananas? what about intersex people? do you consider them "mentally ill". if someone feels happier to transition, why does that bother you?
12. smcameron ◴[] No.15937546{3}[source]
"If only all medicine were evidence based medicine..." Careful what you wish for, I guess.
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13. gajomi ◴[] No.15937566{3}[source]
It is a problem, but a technical problem thats well understood within the relevant communities. A quantification of "various tolerances" is one notion of diversity, but as you have deftly pointed out there are many other quantifiable notions that are endlessly debated (some links in the context of ecology: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C48&q=%22...). Usually "diversity" is reported in terms of well defined quantitative metrics so that even if the umbrella term "diversity" is ambiguous it typically has well defined meaning(s) in the context of any particular study. All of which is to say, I would wager that the vast majority of scientific reports (and perhaps also those coming from the CDC) use the term "diversity" to introduce a general concept of a measure of heterogeneity which is quickly made precise within the study.
14. ams6110 ◴[] No.15937591{4}[source]
> If you actually cared about the person, you don't throw around words like "mental illness." You do that because you hate.

I think you're too absolute there. Certainly many people can talk about mental illness and the mentally ill without hateful intent.

15. rainbowmverse ◴[] No.15937598{3}[source]
The main trouble with -sexual as a catch-all is it's too narrow. Gender and sex have been conflated for a long time in the English-speaking world, but people are becoming more aware of the great variety in both.
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16. ◴[] No.15937616{3}[source]
17. fenomas ◴[] No.15937625[source]
Surely this is a transparently motte-and-bailey argument. Obviously no-one would dispute that it's good for government agencies to use clear language, and avoiding certain words might serve that purpose in certain cases. Those points are completely orthogonal to the fact that it's patently terrible for an administration to attempt to tell its own subject matter experts which words they can use.
18. labster ◴[] No.15937629{4}[source]
This feels like a personal attack against someone who agrees with you.
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19. JshWright ◴[] No.15937653{3}[source]
Yeah, I find myself having to clarify every time I use that phrase that I'm using it in the "pre-buzzword" sense...
20. djsumdog ◴[] No.15937744{5}[source]
It was aimed at the previous comment, but it got flagged for deletion before I could reply.
21. retrogradeorbit ◴[] No.15938009{4}[source]
If you research the etymology of the word gender you discover that the word gender, up until the 1970's in academia, and up until the 2010's in the general populace, had an identical meaning to sex. Gender meant sex. Gender was used in writing and conversation in preference to the word sex, because sex also meant sexual intercourse. So to prevent confusion and so as to not evoke the thought of sex, the word gender was used. Gender meant "sex and I don't mean fucking". This meaning of gender originated back in the 17th century if I recall correctly.

In the 1970s, certain non-scientific branches of academia invented an entirely new concept and attached the label "gender" to it. The concept was that the way one presents themselves in society is "gender". This historically has never been the meaning of gender. The public at large continued to use gender in the original meaning (as you will see with official forms asking for 'gender'. If they asked for 'sex', people would add a box with "yes please" on it and tick it).

In the 2010s this new meaning of gender leaked out of academic circles and into the general vernacular. But it is a concept that is entirely the invention of left-leaning academics, cross citing each other repeatedly in echo chamber journals.

You say there is "great variety in both", but this is not true. There is great variety in "gender as a social construct", that is, the cosmetic way people dress, do their hair etc. But there is not great variety in "sex and I don't mean fucking". Disorders of sex development (DSDs) are extremely rare and do not constitute a new sex and are recognised medically as disorders. For example, XXYY occurs in 1 in 18,000 to 40,000 male births. XXXXY occurs in 1 in 85,000 to 100,000 male births. Compare that to the "normal" male sex characteristics, or the "normal" female sex characteristics, that each occur in about 1 in 2 births.

People erroneously make the claim that other conditions, like triple X syndrome, constitute a DSD (occurs in 1 in 1000 females), but because it causes no health issues or abnormal development it is not considered a DSD by the medical community. The DSD Guideline documents [http://www.dsdguidelines.org] are a trustworthy source of information and definitions.

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22. grigjd3 ◴[] No.15938115[source]
"a diverse range of bacteria" - might just be a phrase you'd see in a document written by the CDC, now banned because of stupid, puerile "culture warriors".
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23. nostrademons ◴[] No.15938122{5}[source]
Gender literally means "kind" (from the Latin "genus"), and it was originally a linguistic term. Its use as an alternative to "sex" dates from 1955, and is contemporaneous with the academic distinction between "gender" as the societal roles of males and females vs. "sex" as the biological distinction between males and females. Before then it was barely used outside of linguistics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#Etymology_and_usage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=gender%2Csex&c...

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24. djur ◴[] No.15938125[source]
> Entitlements is charged term because you've cemented your position on social welfare pretty clearly just by referring to them as entitlements.

This may already be a lost battle, but "entitlement" is a policy term of art with absolutely no negative connotations. It simply refers to any government benefit that a person or entity is guaranteed to receive if they meet a certain set of criteria (i.e. falling under a certain income, under or over a particular age, being a citizen, etc.). This is as opposed to grant programs (limited benefits dispensed according to an assessment of merit), lotteries (limited benefits distributed at random), first-come-first-serve, etc.

25. purple-again ◴[] No.15938132{5}[source]
Why is this being downvoted? This was my exact understanding of the issue as well.
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26. retrogradeorbit ◴[] No.15938134{6}[source]
https://www.etymonline.com/word/gender

"The "male-or-female sex" sense is attested in English from early 15c."

So 15th century, not 17th.

"As sex (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous. Later often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963. Gender-bender is from 1977, popularized from 1980, with reference to pop star David Bowie."

And from your own wikipedia links (which I'm assuming didn't fully read)

"In the last two decades of the 20th century, the use of gender in academia has increased greatly, outnumbering uses of sex in the social sciences. While the spread of the word in science publications can be attributed to the influence of feminism, its use as a synonym for sex is attributed to the failure to grasp the distinction made in feminist theory, and the distinction has sometimes become blurred with the theory itself; David Haig stated, "Among the reasons that working scientists have given me for choosing gender rather than sex in biological contexts are desires to signal sympathy with feminist goals, to use a more academic term, or to avoid the connotation of copulation."[2]"

Which is exactly what I said.

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27. nostrademons ◴[] No.15938147{7}[source]
Your quote supports my timeline: 20th century.
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28. yorwba ◴[] No.15938163{6}[source]
Probably because of "But it is a concept that is entirely the invention of left-leaning academics, cross citing each other repeatedly in echo chamber journals."

While I agree that some scientists are in a kind of echo-chamber, casually accusing everyone who does research involving gender (the social aspect) as politically motivated is uncalled for.

29. dragonwriter ◴[] No.15938166{5}[source]
> If you research the etymology of the word gender you discover that the word gender, up until the 1970's in academia, and up until the 2010's in the general populace, had an identical meaning to sex.

Actually, “gender” historically referred to a feature of grammar, gender for an ascribed social role in the modern sense (sometimes disambiguated as “ascribed gender”) dates from 1955 by John Money. “Gender identity”, which refers to self-perceived association with a gender role dates from the 1960s; both took off in the 1970s. (And I know from personal experience were in wide use when I was a teenager in the 1980s; they certainly didn't enter the popular lexicon in the 2010s.)

“Gender” being applied to humans or other animals in a way equivalent to “sex” actually became popular in modern use later (though it originated earlier), in the 1980s (driven largely by various organizations becoming squeamish about using the word “sex” and seeking an alternative.)

> But there is not great variety in "sex and I don't mean fucking"

Yes, there is; there are lots of biological sex traits, and while there are two modal clusters, there's considerable variation lying outside of them.

Yes, there's a fairly small number of possible configurations of sex chromosomes, but there are sex-related genetic differences at lower levels than whether a chromosome is an X or Y and how many of each are present, and moreover genetics in any case are causal or contributory factors to traits (sex or otherwise), but not themselves the only biological traits of interest (or even usually traits of particular interest except insofar as their contribution to phenotype.)

(And there appears to be a link between the complexity of biological sex and gender identity, because there's research showing that there are particular ways where transgender individuals tend to be more likely to fall outside the two main clusters of how biological sex traits align.)

30. tzs ◴[] No.15938178[source]
> You don't need to say something is evidence-based, just show the evidence.

That would make some sense for documents reporting research results, but this is for budget proposal documents.

31. retrogradeorbit ◴[] No.15938182{8}[source]
Are you being disingenuous? The word has been used to denote "male-or-female sex" since the 15th century. The quote you say supports your timeline is with reference to "the use of gender in academia" and states "to signal sympathy with feminist goals" and "to avoid the connotation of copulation". What evidence do you have that "Before then (1955) it was barely used outside of linguistics."?
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32. nostrademons ◴[] No.15938228{9}[source]
"As sex (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous"

That's not referring to its use in academia, that's its use in the general population, which was "at first regarded as colloquial or humorous".

You can also take a look at the Google N-Gram viewer link I posted, which quantifies its use within general publications. Before the 1960s, it barely appeared, and then its use shot up to rival "sex".

33. nostrademons ◴[] No.15938236{6}[source]
It's factually wrong. Follow his citations and the others posted in this subthread, drop any preconceptions based on how it's used now, and decide for yourself.
34. thanksgiving ◴[] No.15938247{4}[source]
I just assumed that was the norm and we had terms like "experimental cancer treatment" for when the treatment is so new that we don't have enough evidence to back it up.
35. ◴[] No.15939373[source]