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1080 points cbcowans | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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hedgew ◴[] No.15021772[source]
Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even if I practiced for years to try and catch up.

I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness.

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joe_the_user ◴[] No.15021907[source]
I'd actually say just the opposite - the memo seemed to be written as well and in as conciliatory manner as it could be written and the memo made good (or at least plausible) point and bad points. But the bad points were so bad that it was appropriate and necessary to fire Damore.

Essentially, as analogy, there's no way for a person to say "Black people are inferior and shouldn't be hired", as a message broadcast through their entire workplace, and not have that person be creating a hostile work environment for African Americans. If that person says "I don't mean in general, I mean inferior just for this occupation, I don't mean inferior, just 'differently talented, they've got great rhythm'", it doesn't matter, if that person says "here's a study which says this, we should consider this in an open minded fashion" it doesn't matter. The message is unacceptable. That person is done, that person should be done.

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Udik ◴[] No.15022012[source]
Again, like many others you are confusing "less people from this group are qualified" with "people from this group are less qualified". The first doesn't say anything about single individuals, and doesn't suggest any discriminatory practice against the group. The second does.
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dguaraglia ◴[] No.15022152[source]
One of the women in the article addresses that very aptly:

> Assuming that it’s true that women on average are more likely to have trait X, why should any woman have to overcome the additional barrier of proving that she’s not like other women, or that if she IS like other women, that the trait has no bearing on her job performance?

Creating a stereotype generates distrust in the individuals that are part of the group described by the stereotype. You yourself had to delve on the wording of the phrase to explain why you think it's different. Do you think the average person would put as much thought on the wording?

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Udik ◴[] No.15022223[source]
Women, or better, individuals, don't have to overcome any "additional barrier". They have to prove they have the qualifications for the job they want, as everybody else. Each person is a different individual and has to be judged as such, as simple as that.
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1. dguaraglia ◴[] No.15024325{3}[source]
Amen!

And yet, stereotypes do play a role in generating prejudice. In a utopic unprejudiced society, where all people are treated exactly the same by everyone and where there's no pre-conceived notion of "gendered careers", then each person would stand for themselves and their choice of career wouldn't be affected by externalities.

As is, this is 2017 and we have white supremacists chanting about Jews and ramming cars into people. Clearly, we are not even close to that Utopia.

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2. Udik ◴[] No.15025162[source]
That in companies like Google people are not treated the same, and in what measure, is something that is open for debate, not an assumption.

But besides that, if the solution is to dedicate any special effort in hiring from this or that group, then employees from that group will feel they have to prove they really are at the same level as the others. Which is the opposite of what you wanted, and exactly what the female engineers in this interview complain about.