Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

(blog.ycombinator.com)

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hedgew ◴[15 Aug 17 19:57 UTC] No.15021772[source]▶

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even if I practiced for years to try and catch up.

I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness.

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jhayward ◴[15 Aug 17 22:46 UTC] No.15023435[source]▶

>>15021772 #

I think the most empathetic comment on the memo that I read was that it would have been to everyone's benefit if Damore had showed it to several more experienced engineers and incorporated suggestions. No matter who you are, you can use an editor.

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1. jdoliner ◴[15 Aug 17 23:05 UTC] No.15023549[source]▶

>>15023435 #

Damore did do exactly this. The memo was only ever released in the context of "I'm looking for feedback on this and open to being proven wrong.

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2. jhayward ◴[16 Aug 17 00:43 UTC] No.15024071[source]▶

>>15023549 (TP) #

This seems to be a disingenuous take to me.

I don't think you can honestly say publishing it to 10's of thousands of readers constitutes editorial consultation and advice.

Editing and review consists of find a small (one handful) number of trusted friends and mentors whose insight you value, having them read it and make suggestions and comments, perhaps multiple cycles, and only then publish to people you don't know and are hoping to persuade.

It troubles me that this kind of (IMO) disingenuousness shows up again and again in regard to the memo. Not just in this specific comment, but multiple times whenever someone points out a flaw there is always a response of "but he really did do that, you just took it wrong". No, I didn't, and neither did others. He screwed up.

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3. SamReidHughes ◴[16 Aug 17 01:08 UTC] No.15024188[source]▶

>>15024071 #

Didn't he publish it on one internal message board, which most people generally don't read? That hardly constitutes 10's of thousands or readers.

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4. jdoliner ◴[16 Aug 17 01:16 UTC] No.15024233[source]▶

>>15024071 #

As I understand it Damore did seek out feedback from smaller groups of people before releasing it company wide but even if he didn't, who cares? It's very common to publish documents to the entire world asking for review. That's what the RFC processed for digital standards is, that's what arXiv does for academics.

You are the one being disingenuous with this inane critique of the specifics of how Damore sought out feedback for his ideas. He really did do that, he really sought out criticism and continues to do so, you didn't take it wrong though... you're just critiquing it in an inane way. If you disagree with his points, then engage with the points. If the way in which it was written is so deeply flawed then it shouldn't be hard to refute them.

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5. jdoliner ◴[16 Aug 17 01:17 UTC] No.15024243{3}[source]▶

>>15024188 #

To wit, basically no one did read it, or at least no one responded to it. Until it was leaked to the media and became the media storm we're now witnessing.

6. jhayward ◴[16 Aug 17 20:15 UTC] No.15030947{3}[source]▶

>>15024233 #

> As I understand it Damore did seek out feedback from smaller groups of people

Not in the least the same thing as seeking editorial comment from a set of volunteers who know what they're reading. But I can see you are insistent that he did in fact do something he didn't do, which is the definition of disingenuousness.

I wish you good fortune in your future HR counseling sessions.

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