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1080 points cbcowans | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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hedgew ◴[] No.15021772[source]
Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even if I practiced for years to try and catch up.

I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness.

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ryanbrunner ◴[] No.15021858[source]
I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong".

I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after, that does strike me as inappropriate work communication.

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nicolashahn ◴[] No.15022073[source]
Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been written from the opposite side that have not been criticized in the same way.

And for the record, I did not get any aggressive tone from his paper. I thought he was as polite as he needed to be and made the necessary caveats. I think many people were just so unprepared to hear any argument from an opposing viewpoint that they read into it what they wanted to.

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Blackthorn ◴[] No.15022166[source]
> Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem).

This was addressed in the article. This burden has fallen on women since they were teenagers. To expect them to do it yet again, to have to defend themselves at work this time, is ridiculous.

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manigandham ◴[] No.15022543[source]
What burden are you talking about exactly?

You (along with many others) seem to be conflating the major point of the memo between interests and abilities. Not liking something does not mean you're not capable of doing it.

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dguaraglia ◴[] No.15022852{3}[source]
Would you rather hire someone that likes what they do or someone who doesn't?

Would you intuitively think that someone who loves their job are going to be more interested in bigger challenges and doing great work, or someone who doesn't care for the job?

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1. humanrebar ◴[] No.15022958{4}[source]
> Would you rather hire someone that likes what they do or someone who doesn't?

I wouldn't assume someone's interest level based on their demographics. I would, you know, talk to them.

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2. dguaraglia ◴[] No.15023366[source]
So, you are in favor of outreach programs where you get to talk to more people?
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3. humanrebar ◴[] No.15023407[source]
Sure. I do that already, both formally and informally. Though I've probably been underestimating how career limiting that can be.

The Google firing was a really bad move if outreach programs are a good idea.

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4. dguaraglia ◴[] No.15023469{3}[source]
Not sure I follow why you think the firing had something to do with outreach? You mean they'll be losing out on candidates like Damore?
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5. humanrebar ◴[] No.15023574{4}[source]
I think people won't feel comfortable sharing freely, which undermines the whole point of it. It won't just affect candidates like Damore.

People who don't feel like sharing probably won't feel like getting talked at, so there won't be much listening in the other direction either.