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    586 points prawn | 21 comments | | HN request time: 0.248s | source | bottom
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    schoen ◴[] No.14502425[source]
    I wrote this article/originally created this list, and I would like to emphasize that there is a second generation of this technology that probably uses dithering parameters or something of that sort, and that does not produce visible dots but still creates a tracking code. We don't know the details but we do know that some companies told governments that they were going to do this, and that some newer printers from companies that the government agencies said were onboard with forensic marking no longer print yellow dots.

    That makes me think that it may have been a mistake to create this list in the first place, because the main practical use of the list would be to help people buy color laser printers that don't do forensic tracking, yet it's not clear that any such printers are actually commercially available.

    replies(8): >>14502841 #>>14503474 #>>14504327 #>>14504357 #>>14504856 #>>14505064 #>>14505539 #>>14507194 #
    RachelF ◴[] No.14503474[source]
    What is annoying is that the user pays for this. How much more yellow toner do I need to buy because my print outs are covered in yellow dots?

    I wonder how many million extra gallons of yellow toner and ink are wasted every year printing these tracker dots?

    replies(7): >>14503608 #>>14503627 #>>14504564 #>>14504804 #>>14505572 #>>14505582 #>>14508939 #
    1. therein ◴[] No.14503608[source]
    On some printers, this is the reason why the printer will refuse to print a BW-only printout while the only empty cartridge is the color one.
    replies(7): >>14503929 #>>14504566 #>>14504704 #>>14505979 #>>14506056 #>>14506326 #>>14510614 #
    2. yummybear ◴[] No.14503929[source]
    I can feel my blood pressure rising...
    3. anc84 ◴[] No.14504566[source]
    That needs a citation or a sarcasm tag.
    replies(2): >>14504808 #>>14505412 #
    4. karrotwaltz ◴[] No.14504704[source]
    No idea if this is the real reason, but it's still very annoying.

    My previous printer did this, and my current Canon refuses to boot when any cartridge is missing or empty.

    replies(1): >>14506766 #
    5. mcv ◴[] No.14504808[source]
    Does an anecdote count? My Samsung refuses to print b&w when a color cartridge is empty.
    replies(4): >>14504893 #>>14504900 #>>14504927 #>>14505240 #
    6. dom0 ◴[] No.14504893{3}[source]
    I heard that before, I think it's a tactic to bully people into buying more ink they don't need. Ensuring tracking dots is maybe just an unfortunate side effect.
    7. josefx ◴[] No.14504900{3}[source]
    Most likely it tries to print rich black, which uses color to make the b&w printout look better ( and use up all that costly color). You can disable that in your printer settings with most printers.
    8. dspillett ◴[] No.14504927{3}[source]
    I've always assumed that is just lazy design (some resources that _might_ be needed are unavailable, report and refuse to print withut checking if they are actually needed for the current job) rather than due to a security (or even ink selling) measure. I've seen the behaviour as far back as the first colour photocopier I ever used.
    replies(1): >>14504990 #
    9. seszett ◴[] No.14504990{4}[source]
    I've seen that as well a long time ago on a black+red photocopier, no yellow and probably no tracking patterns since red would have been quite visible.
    10. anc84 ◴[] No.14505240{3}[source]
    No, the thing happening does not count as proof why it is happening. Printers refusing to print bw is widely known.
    11. mort96 ◴[] No.14505412[source]
    I would also be interested in a citation, but it does make sense; if tracking dots is well known (which they are), and it was easy to circumvent by just removing yellow toner, anyone somewhat technically adept would just remove their toner before printing their illegal documents.
    replies(1): >>14508343 #
    12. hdra ◴[] No.14505979[source]
    Imagine the twist this put would on the whole Hanlon's razor thing if this were true.
    13. nemacol ◴[] No.14506056[source]
    This is the first thing I thought of when I read about this. It made me quite angry and then a little satisfied finally knowing why this happens.
    replies(1): >>14506339 #
    14. Bartweiss ◴[] No.14506326[source]
    That doesn't make much sense to me. B/W only (not greyscale) is currently understood to not output these dots at all, so why would the presence of yellow matter?
    15. kem ◴[] No.14506339[source]
    On the other hand, I didn't think of it until I read this. It made me a little satisfied, and then it made me quite angry.
    16. TallGuyShort ◴[] No.14506766[source]
    My Epson does this, and it's apparently because not having enough ink in the system leads to maintenance issues with heads drying out, etc. Which is understandable, but I wish there was like a 48-hour override so running out of a color didn't prevent me from printing the documents I urgently need RIGHT NOW. So instead, I have to purchase a couple hundred dollars worth of cartridges in advance.
    17. schoen ◴[] No.14508343{3}[source]
    This makes less sense than you might think because the original motivation from the government side was tracing counterfeit currency, not tracking all documents. Printing convincing counterfeit currency without yellow toner would be a challenge!

    However, the governments did not succeed in limiting their technology to use in counterfeiting investigations, and may not even have attempted to do so.

    replies(1): >>14510849 #
    18. handedness ◴[] No.14510614[source]
    I'm not so sure about that. Having had an inside view into one such program I can say confidently that at least in that particular major manufacturer's situation, that had absolutely nothing to do with it. It was entirely engineering-driven and about preserving the print head.
    replies(1): >>14514862 #
    19. razorunreal ◴[] No.14510849{4}[source]
    If that's true that just makes me angrier because a far better solution would be to improve the currency, like Canada and many other countries did long ago.
    20. funnyfacts365 ◴[] No.14514862[source]
    or so they said... Do you really know the ultimate reason why?
    replies(1): >>14589479 #
    21. handedness ◴[] No.14589479{3}[source]
    I do, yes. There were sound technical reasons for it.