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383 points imartin2k | 29 comments | | HN request time: 0.661s | source | bottom
1. cousin_it ◴[] No.14330454[source]
I don't understand the libertarian argument for allowing low wages. Let's say company X is paying low wages, which allows it to sell goods for cheap. If company Y tries to enter the market and pay higher wages, they won't get any market share, because their goods will be more expensive. So wages will stay low forever. Am I missing something?
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2. mnx ◴[] No.14330465[source]
Yes. Labour supply is not limitless. So in theory you could treat labour just as any other market good. Therefore, if there's an oversupply of labour, it will be cheap. If the supply is short, it will be expensive. There's many important caveats, and I don't claim to represent the Libertarian view fully, but that's the most important thing you are missing.
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3. moxious ◴[] No.14330472[source]
In theory, labor forces higher wages, they are not given by the business. What you're missing is that the power dynamic isn't one way with the company determining everything. Labor has to agree to accept low wages or the whole arrangement falls apart and either the company pays more or stops doing business.
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4. antome ◴[] No.14330478[source]
The are two arguments I see: the first is that if the minimum wage is higher, the cost of living increases, leading to the same problem as before. Of course this assumes the two are perfectly correlated, which is a flawed assumption.

The second is that if local humans are too expensive, people will use local robots or outsourced humans instead. While technically true, this is inevitable. Lowering wages might slow down the incoming problem, but it will always eventually exist regardless of local wages.

5. IanDrake ◴[] No.14330495[source]
Yeah, you're missing the greater economy that surrounds your microcosm.

Skill is not in abundance. People pay for skill and people with skill can demand pay.

People without skill have little value to offer. Is it better to price their skill at its true value and have them work or to price it at an artificial value and have them not work?

On the consumer end, lowest price doesn't declare a winner. Look at Whole Foods or Ben and Jerry's. These are companies that hire essentially unskilled workers who speak English well and look and act like my peers and they get paid more than minimum wage.

However, if I walk into a Walmart I'm usually surprised that the people working there still have a job. They're typically weird or rude and/or speak poor English (this includes supposedly EFL people).

6. ◴[] No.14330499[source]
7. jstanley ◴[] No.14330505[source]
If company Y is producing the same quality of goods as company X but trying to charge more money, they deserve to be out-competed by company X. Do you agree?

Equally, if employee Y is producing the same quality of work as employee X but trying to charge more money, does employee Y not deserve to be out-competed by employee X?

Employment is a two-sided market too.

Nobody would advocate for a minimum price for a packet of crisps just to save the poor crisp companies from earning too little per packet. It is obvious that if crisps were too expensive, people would stop buying them. The same applies for workers.

Minimum wage is just saying "if you can't produce at least $X of value per hour, you're not allowed to work at all". That's not fair.

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8. pg314 ◴[] No.14330520[source]
Except that in one case you're talking about companies and in the other about people. I have no problems with companies dying, but I have moral reservations about people dying. The free market has no such qualms, it will happily set wages at a level where people can't survive.
replies(1): >>14330568 #
9. ◴[] No.14330560[source]
10. eru ◴[] No.14330568{3}[source]
A minimum wage forbids companies from hiring workers..

What you are arguing for is a welfare state.

As an example, modern Germany had a long tradition of welfare state combined with no minimum wage.

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11. gtvwill ◴[] No.14330606[source]
Not sure what country your from but here is Aussie we have many price floors in place for basic goods. Phone and internet being one of those goods.

Price floors on many products are considered here in order to maintain certain industries. Not to mention import taxes which also set price floors in a way.

12. DougBTX ◴[] No.14330651[source]
> Minimum wage is just saying "if you can't produce at least $X of value per hour, you're not allowed to work at all". That's not fair.

That's an oversimplification, since it ignores what is paid to people who produce more than $X of value per hour.

Minimum wage says something closer to, "If you can produce at least $X+Y value per hour, you will be paid at least $X", where X is the minimum wage, and Y is the level of profit that a company needs to operate.

Assuming no upward pressure on X, a company will prefer to maximise Y and minimise X. Minimum wage laws are one way to apply upward pressure. Competition over constrained supply is another, but only applies if there actually is a supply constraint.

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13. arjie ◴[] No.14330680[source]
The missing piece is that no one is entitled to an unregulated market. Capital has the power to employ and in an unregulated environment, more power to determine wages than labour.

But in a modern democracy, labour has a different sort of power and I cannot think of a moral principle that says that labour should not distort the market using its power at the ballot box.

If a pro-unregulated market candidate can't win more votes than the guy who wants to support minimum wages, he doesn't deserve to win. And he doesn't deserve to enact his policies.

So an ancap can argue his point but if he can't win in the marketplace of ideas, then he doesn't win. Because that market is truly free.

That's fair.

14. jstanley ◴[] No.14330744{3}[source]
What about the people who are unable to produce at least $X of value per hour? They don't matter?

You're surely not interested in protecting the somewhat-poor at the expense of the poverty-stricken.

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15. Chris2048 ◴[] No.14330811{4}[source]
What if they can't provide more value than enough to get food and shelter?
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16. danblick ◴[] No.14330818[source]
Doesn't your argument basically assume the first company will always be able to hire workers? If wages are so bad, workers would seek other options, like developing a skill or taking a job in a different industry.

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/02/25/remedial-eco...

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17. frgtpsswrdlame ◴[] No.14330974[source]
...Does this guy actually know any economics? He's pretty much just googling and copy-pasting without any real understanding. Here's a better article

The employment effect of the minimum wage is one of the most studied topics in all of economics. This report examines the most recent wave of this research – roughly since 2000 – to determine the best current estimates of the impact of increases in the minimum wage on the employment prospects of low-wage workers. The weight of that evidence points to little or no employment response to modest increases in the minimum wage.

http://cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf

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18. danblick ◴[] No.14331088{3}[source]
"But, probably the most important channel of adjustment is through reductions in labor turnover, which yield significant cost savings to employers."

If this is the case, you'd think employers would have an incentive to raise wages on their own without requiring a law.

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19. aianus ◴[] No.14331105{5}[source]
Then they should still work at $4/h or whatever and the government should top them off to $10/h with basic income or welfare.

It's more efficient and humane than basically telling them they're worthless and they should just stay unemployed.

20. aianus ◴[] No.14331120{4}[source]
Some do, like Costco paying cashiers well over minimum wage to improve service and turnover.
21. adultSwim ◴[] No.14331392[source]
1.5 million American families, including 3m children, live on less than $2/person/day. Half the world lives on less than $2/day (in our buying power). This isn't by choice.
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22. danblick ◴[] No.14331612{3}[source]
I agree that's something we should be concerned about. I don't think minimum wage laws address that issue though.

If you want to help improve standards of living around the world, reduce immigration restrictions so that people can move from countries with few economic opportunities to other countries where there are more opportunities.

Personally I agree with most of what Bryan Caplan has written on the topic.

https://vimeo.com/15000835

23. ◴[] No.14332003[source]
24. bweitzman ◴[] No.14332417[source]
> Minimum wage is just saying "if you can't produce at least $X of value per hour, you're not allowed to work at all". That's not fair.

Employees don't get paid the full value they generate, so that's not a reasonable way to interpret minimum wage.

25. Fnoord ◴[] No.14332653{4}[source]
> As an example, modern Germany had a long tradition of welfare state combined with no minimum wage

Welfare state as in? Having social benefits and minimum wage is not mutually exclusive.

Furthermore according to Wikipedia [1] the minimum wage in Germany is 8.84 EUR. You might say, "that's Wikipedia, that's no reliable source!" No sweat, go click the link first. For this specific information (minimum wage in Germany) they provide links to an English AND German source.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_count...

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26. Fnoord ◴[] No.14332719[source]
> Minimum wage is just saying "if you can't produce at least $X of value per hour, you're not allowed to work at all". That's not fair.

Non sequitur.

Also, inaccurate. You can't _legally_ work if you can't produce $X of value per hour. Of course you can work; it'd just be illegal. The oldest profession in world is, after all, prostitution. And there's demand for that.

Also, if you can find applicable work or not is not entirely up to the potential worker. That's supply AND demand.

Which means you end up working illegally (in a what I'd argue is an uncivilized society) or you end up with social benefits (in a what I'd argue is a civilized society).

Which means, following your logic: "if you cannot be profitable while paying your employees minimum wage a $X/hour, don't have that job available."

In other words, if you cannot pay your workers a fair fee while delivering food, don't deliver food at all. But I guarantee you its profitable. Food has been delivered for many decennia. I remember as a child in the '80s we had a minimum order fee, a delivery fee, and a radius where orders were delivered to. Some companies still do that.

Of course, we end up competing with migrant workers from less free areas in the world. But that does not mean we need to lower our standards to those of where those people come from.

As a final note, its important that minimum wage laws exist because they're roughly the minimum means to an end in society. The minimum required to have food, a roof, insurance, and basics like an Internet connection.

27. Fnoord ◴[] No.14332752{4}[source]
> What about the people who are unable to produce at least $X of value per hour? They don't matter?

They get fired as soon as statistics show they don't meet their targets. We already have tons of those jobs in existence and the rise of technology only oversimplified this further. Case in point: a call center. Say the goal is you need to deal with X customers in an hour. That doesn't mean their problems are solved. And even if the problem is (seemingly) solved that doesn't mean their problems are solved in the best way possible. And yet, this is the basis of how call centers operate these days.

What happens when people get fired? Well, in some countries you get social benefits and in some you don't but there's no country where those benefits are going to pay your bills AND allow you to enjoy any form of luxury. So what happens either way? They look for a new job. Preferably legal job, but if they can't, they resort to shady businesses. Grey areas. You know, like Uber*?

28. DougBTX ◴[] No.14333288{4}[source]
I agree with you that a minimum wage law is effectively a ban on pay for very unproductive work, but I disagree with you on what that implies.

If someone can't support themselves, then I believe that the wider community should help.

The two groups of people which I have in mind are: 1) those who can't produce enough value to support themselves, and 2) those who can produce enough value to support themselves, but who are not paid a large enough fraction of that value to actually do so.

My understanding is that X is set high enough so that people in group 2 will get a large enough share to support themselves (so it moves people from the poverty-stricken group to the somewhat-poor group at the cost of company profits) while still being low enough such that anyone who produces less would fall into group 1 anyway, and would therefore need other more direct help, independent of any minimum wage laws.

Is your position that for any X, some people will be forced into group 1 who would otherwise consider themselves self-sufficient, and that the cost to them outweighs the benefit to those in group 2?

29. eru ◴[] No.14345713{5}[source]
Exactly. There are two independent choices.

Yes, Germany has a minimum wage now. It's fairly recent. Hence my careful wording that Germany "had" a tradition, not "has" a tradition.