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216 points aq3cn | 69 comments | | HN request time: 0.444s | source | bottom
1. hartator ◴[] No.13063880[source]
I think I am starting to get worried about the future of Apple.

2016 was a bad year. New iPhone has been the worst selling one in relative numbers since the iPhone. New MacBooks has several issues and controversial choices, while not bringing anything substantial to the table. New Watch changes are so small, nobody noticed an update.

replies(14): >>13063977 #>>13063980 #>>13063997 #>>13064041 #>>13064185 #>>13064206 #>>13064220 #>>13064230 #>>13064241 #>>13064328 #>>13064335 #>>13064350 #>>13064862 #>>13064973 #
2. Thane ◴[] No.13063977[source]
The volume button placement opposite of the power button...
replies(2): >>13064186 #>>13064196 #
3. econnors ◴[] No.13063980[source]
Anecdotally, among my (20 something year old) friends, the iPhone used to be a must-have for many reasons; now, it's only a must-have for imessage. If android phones could send "blue texts" than I'm sure many would switch over.
replies(3): >>13064088 #>>13064212 #>>13064566 #
4. mi100hael ◴[] No.13063997[source]
Yeah it really feels like they're in full Ballmer mode and just capitalizing off of their own popularity right now rather than continuing to innovate (and doing it badly, at that). I was through-and-through a fanboy for the past 15+ years, but I've finally started moving away from the Apple ecosystem. Both their hardware & software QC has clearly been going downhill, and their design decisions are increasingly frustrating to the end user.
5. beachstartup ◴[] No.13064041[source]
they also seem to have abandoned the mac pro, and have dropped os x (mac os, ehh) support for older mac pros that are still very productive and useful (2008+) models which still have 8 xeon cores.

i fear they are going into a mid-late 1990s period of stagnation and product confusion, but this time there's no steve jobs.

6. dopamean ◴[] No.13064088[source]
Blackberries were a must have among my friends because we all wanted BBM. Some of us were pretty late getting off of Blackberry because of it.
7. joshklein ◴[] No.13064185[source]
I'm also worried. At first, I rationalized weakness on the Mac front as a side-effect of a strategic prioritization of the mobile & cloud ecosystem. But then I got the new iPhone, and I've been surprised by my emotional reaction to it feeling buggy.

It's all relatively minor in isolation; voicemail consistently fails to load messages multiple times before it succeeds, voicemail occasionally crashes, apps get stuck halfway down the screen after I swipe to check the notification screen, texts and iMessages sometimes show up hours or days late, notifications appear on the lock screen but are missing when I unlock the phone, the weather app sometimes displays a blank temperature, web sites have broken behavior with auto-playing, the state of the device when using volume controls changes unpredictably, and so on.

Most of these are undoubtedly caused by my service provider, or a 3rd party app, or me fat-thumbing an interface, or my complete misperception of a UI paradigm, or are otherwise not Apple's fault. But that's entirely besides the point, because we're talking about my emotional reaction, not reality, and we're talking about something Apple used to bend over backwards to control.

If the common narrative about Apple's modern successes being rooted in design sensibilities is correct, I don't see them being able to sustain leadership in the areas where they've been leading. The good news for Apple is that there still aren't better alternatives for customers who are heavily invested in the Apple ecosystem. The bad news is that there eventually will be, and also that there is material economic harm in keeping customers but losing their enthusiasm.

replies(5): >>13064385 #>>13064448 #>>13064521 #>>13064586 #>>13064822 #
8. etatoby ◴[] No.13064186[source]
My Android phone has that and it's infuriating!
9. rjtobin ◴[] No.13064196[source]
I've ranted about this to friends but they didn't get it. Glad to know I'm not alone on this!

Also the audio jack on the bottom: can no longer use headphones and prop the phone up on a desk when using FaceTime (which is surely a common use-case)

replies(1): >>13064279 #
10. k-mcgrady ◴[] No.13064206[source]
>> "New iPhone has been the worst selling one in relative numbers since the iPhone.

1. What do you mean relative numbers?

2. Any stats to back this up, as I've seen conflicting data?

Regardless, of course it's not going to be a big seller. It's the 10th(?) generation of a device everybody already owns. It's also the third year running the design hasn't changed at all (presumably as they want to make a big splash on next years 10th anniversary).

As for the MacBook's, in my experience ordinary people don't really put all that much decision making into buying a computer. They want something that looks nice and almost any computer on the market has the power they need for Word, Facebook, and email. The touch bar is something all my non-tech friends think is really cool and makes them want a new MacBook.

The Watch update may not have amounted to much but you're completely ignoring watchOS 3 - that was huge. They managed to make a pretty crappy device really good with only a software update. Early adopters don't need to splash out another load of cash on a piece of hardware, they can get most of the benefit through a free software update.

While I agree there has been nothing mind blowing I also haven't seen anything mind blowing on an Android device or software update, a PC, or any wearable device. Also, I really struggle to find things that my iPhone/Mac don't do that I need them to do. What substantial new features did you seek from the new MacBook?

replies(2): >>13064268 #>>13064411 #
11. etatoby ◴[] No.13064212[source]
Isn't WhatsApp widespread enough in your circles, as a IM replacement? I thought it was quite universal.

Or is it a particular feature of iMessage that WhatsApp is missing?

replies(5): >>13064245 #>>13064373 #>>13064637 #>>13065397 #>>13124429 #
12. ◴[] No.13064220[source]
13. swah ◴[] No.13064230[source]
Just look at Android phones and tablets and non-Apple notebooks: Apple will be fine. (I'm an Android user).
replies(1): >>13064480 #
14. neal_jones ◴[] No.13064241[source]
This may be a little dark, but this year is the first time I've watched an Apple conference and thought, "Man...it's like Steve Jobs is dead or something..." It is like Apple has no idea what it's doing anymore, if you went back in time and showed me the latest Apple and Microsoft products side by side I don't know that I'd be able to connect the right name to the right products. I think we're entering a new era.
15. mikestew ◴[] No.13064245{3}[source]
Or is it a particular feature of iMessage that WhatsApp is missing?

The feature called "Built into the ROM of every iPhone".

replies(1): >>13064978 #
16. deong ◴[] No.13064268[source]
While I think that its Gen-1 form is too expensive to do much to the market, the Surface Studio is as mind blowing as I can remember any PC or Mac being since maybe the first iMac.
replies(2): >>13065148 #>>13066269 #
17. deong ◴[] No.13064279{3}[source]
See, I'm the opposite. I always wanted the headphone jack on the bottom because that's where it needs to be for the phone to go properly in my pocket.
replies(1): >>13064323 #
18. pricechild ◴[] No.13064323{4}[source]
If screen rotation were free, surely you could both have what you want?
replies(2): >>13064419 #>>13065210 #
19. etatoby ◴[] No.13064328[source]
I think Apple's problem is the very fact that they are trying to improve on their products, which are already considered top of the line. In doing so, they are putting out bad hardware / software choices that alienate existing users, while not attracting any substantial amount of new users.

If they just kept making the same stuff with minor hardware updates, you would hear much less criticism, if any at all.

As a proof, look at the complaints about their newest products, here or elsewhere. They all focus on the new features. Nobody is complaining that Apple is not trying to bring new stuff to the table. On the contrary, the problem is that they are trying hard to innovate on something that should stay in "maintenance mode."

It may be a cultural American thing, because I really don't understand why they are doing it. I think they are shooting themselves in the foot.

replies(1): >>13066539 #
20. ◴[] No.13064350[source]
21. epmatsw ◴[] No.13064373{3}[source]
In the US, I know 0 users of WhatsApp (excluding work friends from other countries). It doesn't have nearly the market penetration of even something like GroupMe as far as I can tell.
replies(1): >>13065249 #
22. cicloid ◴[] No.13064385[source]
Do you feel those are issues with the hardware or iOS?

For me the hardware feels solid. But I see the rough edges on iOS.

replies(1): >>13064688 #
23. hartator ◴[] No.13064411[source]
It's not really a secret unfortunately:

New iPhone 7 Data Suggests Sales Slower Than iPhone 6S - http://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2016/10/03/iphone-7-s...

[edit] You have actually more data here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-ipho...

If you compare 2016 Q4 to 2015 Q4, iPhone sales are retracting. Same for 2016 Q3 against 2015 Q3. I don't get what the debate is. It's public data.

replies(2): >>13064430 #>>13068399 #
24. rjtobin ◴[] No.13064419{5}[source]
Problem is that the camera is on top so if you rotate the phone and stand the phone on a surface, the camera is pointing in the wrong place.
25. sosborn ◴[] No.13064430{3}[source]
That is a very different situation than "New iPhone has been the worst selling one in relative numbers since the iPhone."
replies(1): >>13064919 #
26. cptskippy ◴[] No.13064448[source]
> cloud ecosystem.

Apart from promoting the the App Store, has Apple done anything to promote or enhance it's cloud offerings? I don't recall hearing anything about iCloud in a very long time.

> voicemail consistently fails to load messages

AT&T? I've noticed this to be the case for AT&T users regardless of whether it's iOS or Android. Their visual voicemail is unreliable.

> or me fat-thumbing an interface

I routinely run into issues trying to use iOS on iPhone 5/SE test devices for work. The touch targets are so small I have cock my fingers at weird angles to be able to hit buttons. The App Store purchase buttons are some of the worst offenders. It's almost like Apple stopped testing their UI on small screens after the iPhone 6 came out.

replies(1): >>13064623 #
27. mi100hael ◴[] No.13064480[source]
I ditched my rMBP in favor of a Dell M5510 Developer Edition because I was sick of my MBP pretty consistently freezing especially waking from sleep, or the sound drivers crashing, or my time machine backups becoming corrupted every other week. The build quality is 90% of the way there, as are a lot of smartphones like the One Plus 3 for half the price of an iPhone.
replies(1): >>13066419 #
28. forgetsusername ◴[] No.13064521[source]
>I'm also worried.

No worries here. I'm happy the landscape is getting more competitive.

29. WayneBro ◴[] No.13064566[source]
The non-iPhone users don't send the blue text. Your sent texts are blue on your iPhone if you're messaging another iPhone user and it's green if not.

Though, who actually cares about this and why?

Anyway, I recently switched to iOS for an experiment and my biggest gripe is: no back button. Instead of a conveniently placed button, I have to always reach up to the upper left corner of the app to go back.

My second biggest gripe is that links from Apple's shitty programs only want to open in Safari instead of my browser.

And third, I can't organize my icons the way I want to. Typical Apple: No choices. Their way or the highway. Fuck you power-users and people who know what they want.

replies(3): >>13064726 #>>13065411 #>>13066410 #
30. spacehacker ◴[] No.13064586[source]
There certainly is regression at all corners:

1. Try finding a close-up of the keyboard of the function key model on the MacBook Pro website. It seems it is just not there or I'm failing to find it. Previously Apple used to have a design section where you could see the products from all angles.

http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/

2. The online shop is just horrible. Even finding the store takes a while and the icons look like clip-art. Complete mess.

http://www.apple.com/shop/accessories/all-accessories

3. This is how the Apple Pencil and the Mighty Mouse are supposed to be charged:

https://i.imgur.com/CvcaGze.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/P8M8pqO.jpg

The Mighty Mouse is also an ergonomic disaster.

4. The iPhone case with battery pack has an aweful design. Who would ever let this pass?

https://i.imgur.com/DyvTE3w.jpg

5. It also feels like the "Designed by Apple in California" book was published 20 years early. It's just like the new Star Wars movie, all those recent sequels of the n-th iteration and Marvel comic adaptations. Nobody innovates anymore and people just replicate what worked well before or only improve it incrementally.

replies(3): >>13065439 #>>13065513 #>>13065770 #
31. joshklein ◴[] No.13064623{3}[source]
> cloud ecosystem

I only meant in the strategic sense. If the future of personal computing is to be lightweight terminals and hardware requirements pushed into the cloud, Mac hardware and macOS might provide less growth opportunity than other business units. This is completely debatable, but is at least plausible.

> voicemail

Verizon for me.

> fat-thumbing an interface

I should also mention I have it set to the largest interface settings, and I'm a 32 year old with 20/20 vision.

32. zachwood ◴[] No.13064637{3}[source]
For me, the main feature of iMessage is that Facebook isn't gobbling up all of my metadata.
33. joshklein ◴[] No.13064688{3}[source]
I think you're right that it's iOS rather than hardware, but Apple already has no competitive advantage in the mobile space when it comes to industrial design. Others caught up on the hardware and physical product design in the last couple years; it's now the software and service ecosystem which keep Apple customers buying iPhones.
34. mikeash ◴[] No.13064726{3}[source]
It's getting less common, but some people still pay exorbitant per-message rates for SMS. I no longer care, but when iMessage first came out I was really happy that I could finally text (some) people freely.
replies(1): >>13065507 #
35. Inthenameofmine ◴[] No.13064822[source]
I guess the grass really is always greener on the other side. Android and W10 people always complain about buggyness. I think we've reached the point where larger software has become too complex for today's development and testing methods.
replies(1): >>13065416 #
36. notadoc ◴[] No.13064862[source]
I am very worried about Apple, they seem to be focusing on the wrong things and damaging their brand goodwill in the process. The general attitude shift towards Apple and Apple products over the last year in particular has been dramatic and is overwhelmingly negative, while the company appears to be oblivious or unconcerned.
37. ◴[] No.13064919{4}[source]
38. spongeb00b ◴[] No.13064973[source]
It's not like they had to drop an entire product line because they kept exploding.
39. swolchok ◴[] No.13064978{4}[source]
It's not built into the ROM. iMessage got a huge update with iOS 10. If it was built into the ROM, that wouldn't be possible, because the old version would be, well, read-only.
replies(2): >>13065141 #>>13065854 #
40. artmageddon ◴[] No.13065141{5}[source]
Either way, iMessage comes by default, and every iPhone is guaranteed to have it. Using iMessage instead of say, Whatsapp means I don't have to download yet another app and sign up for yet another service and search for yet another user(not to mention possibly giving away personal information to Facebook) when I can already use what's already on my phone.
41. fhood ◴[] No.13065148{3}[source]
Right, so if only it ran macOS the world would be a happy place, and I wouldn't be panicking over what I am going to replace my MBP with. I am not mentally prepared for usb-c yet Apple. I need more time to gird my loins.
42. deong ◴[] No.13065210{5}[source]
It's not just the screen. The actual physical phone has to come out of my pocket upside down if the headphone jack is on the top. The volume keys are on the wrong side; if you have a home button or fingerprint reader, it's flipped upside down.

I wasn't trying to make a massive deal about it, for what it's worth. Every phone I've had for probably 8 years has had the jack on the top instead of the bottom where I'd want it. It's fine. I was just chiming in to say there are legitimate reasons why it's not necessarily obvious that there's a correct answer.

43. dajohnson89 ◴[] No.13065249{4}[source]
I know lots of people here in the US who use WhatsApp, but yeah, many of them are from other countries. Even people born in the US, with families/friends outside the US, use it heavily.
44. zeroer ◴[] No.13065397{3}[source]
I change sim card (and hence phone number) frequently for international travel. WhatsApp is horrendous for this use case. It makes me re-authenticate (or something) each time, and people have a hard time finding me. Identity should not be linked to phone number.
replies(1): >>13066887 #
45. rajathagasthya ◴[] No.13065411{3}[source]
> Anyway, I recently switched to iOS for an experiment and my biggest gripe is: no back button. Instead of a conveniently placed button, I have to always reach up to the upper left corner of the app to go back.

You can swipe from the left corner of the screen to go back (do this with 3D touch and it switches to your previous app). You don't need to reach the top for the back button every time.

replies(1): >>13081298 #
46. marcosdumay ◴[] No.13065416{3}[source]
Some phones are cheap, some have big screens, some as fast, some have extra battery or memory.

Apple's differential has always been the UX. If they lose that, they'll need to be the best in something else.

47. lostlogin ◴[] No.13065439{3}[source]
Point 3 is incredible. It's like a selfie stick gone wrong (or perhaps, gone more wrong).
replies(1): >>13066465 #
48. smpetrey ◴[] No.13065507{4}[source]
I'm floating in the same social circle right now. 99% of my friends and family have an apple device to communicate. I just kicked the text-messaging subscription bucket.
replies(1): >>13066719 #
49. comex ◴[] No.13065513{3}[source]
The Mighty Mouse charge port is indeed a WTF, but what's wrong with the Apple Pencil? The charging setup looks ugly, but it allows the Pencil to be charged on the go without needing an extra cable that people would lose or leave behind. And it's fast enough (15 seconds of charging for 30 minutes of usage) that the awkwardness hardly matters.
replies(1): >>13065786 #
50. nicky0 ◴[] No.13065770{3}[source]
Just wondering, have you been keeping these in a list waiting for this opportunity, or did all that just come out of your head?
51. Watabou ◴[] No.13065786{4}[source]
The Mighty Mouse is the same. You get 9 hours of use from 2 minutes of charge time, and macOS warns you ahead of time, enough time for you to go and get a cup of coffee and by the time you're done, you'll probably end up with a full day's worth of charge. Or on the day that macOS warns you, just leave it to charge overnight. You get over a month of charge (I get close to 2), of usage.

The charging port on the back of the mouse is done to stop people from using it with it plugged in, which ruins the overall design, and since most people are lazy, they'll leave it plugged in all the time. Apple designs its products by thinking of an ideal use case first. Then they will try their hardest to make people use it in that ideal scenario.

I don't quite see the WTF here. I understand Apple's design decision and think it's actually quite clever, despite what it looks like at first glance.

52. mikestew ◴[] No.13065854{5}[source]
Thanks, Captain Pedantic. Pretty sure folks get the idea despite the egregious inaccuracies in what I wrote. (And, as an aside, I knew that when I wrote it.)
53. k-mcgrady ◴[] No.13066269{3}[source]
The Surface Studio looks amazing but it's a niche device. Expensive and the cool features are mostly for creative work. When I said there's no innovation or missing features I was mainly referring to general use laptop computers and the parent was referencing the MacBook.
54. pfranz ◴[] No.13066410{3}[source]
> my biggest gripe is: no back button

I had an Android for awhile and the hardware back button made no sense to me. I thought most phones eventually moved to a software back button. I never really knew if I would be going back inside the app, to the last app I had open, to the home screen, or if I was at the end of the queue and it did nothing. Apple took much longer to add it, but I prefer the context their implementation has and gestures for it.

> And third, I can't organize my icons the way I want to.

I have no idea what you're talking about. This is what it sounds like you're talking about[1]. I don't think it was in the original iPhone (2007), but I see references dating back to Jan 2008.

[1] http://i0.wp.com/content.screencast.com/users/Fosteronomo/fo...

replies(1): >>13081266 #
55. pfranz ◴[] No.13066419{3}[source]
What do you use for local backup?
replies(1): >>13066457 #
56. mi100hael ◴[] No.13066457{4}[source]
I just have an rsync cronjob that makes an incremental backup to a network drive on my home LAN. There are some GUIs for rsync like BackInTime for those who are less inclined to deal with the command line.
57. TheOtherHobbes ◴[] No.13066465{4}[source]
Actually there's an adaptor with the pencil that allows you to charge with it a standard lightning cable.

You can plug it into an iPad, but you really don't have to.

58. TheOtherHobbes ◴[] No.13066539[source]
They're doing it because Tim Cook isn't an innovator - so in fact there are very justified complaints that Apple isn't bring new stuff to the table, in the true meaning of new stuff.

Currently I don't see anyone at Apple who's an innovator. They're all talented execution guys, but they're not inventors.

There's a difference between invention and refinement. Apple has been doing a lot of refinement, but very little invention. And increasingly even the refinement is kind of sketchy.

There were definitely missed opportunities.

Apple could have turned Apple TV into Alexa - which would not only have been very cool, but would also have given everyone a reason to buy Apple TV.

Apple could have owned the domestic IoT space and added a layer of security and reassurance that's missing from current products.

Apple could have taken podcasting and created the video and audio creator's market now owned by YouTube.

Don't like these? There were others.

Instead we got bigger, smaller, thinner, shinier... Plus a payment system which is kind of limping along, a failed car project, a not very attractive watch, and increasingly un-special hardware and software that's actively frustrating influential professional users.

59. mikeash ◴[] No.13066719{5}[source]
I only have unlimited texting because it ended up being cheaper for me to get a package that included it. It's nice to be able to sign up for SMS alerts and such without worrying about the cost, but if it hadn't been cheaper I'd still be relying on iMessage for everything.
60. dcohenp ◴[] No.13066887{4}[source]
I do this often, too. Just FYI: all you need to do is tell WhatsApp "Never mind, I'm not actually changing my number" when prompted (which should only happen once per SIM card change). That's it. You'll continue being identified to your WhatsApp contacts by your "home" phone number (not your temporary one).
replies(1): >>13069419 #
61. coldtea ◴[] No.13068399{3}[source]
>If you compare 2016 Q4 to 2015 Q4, iPhone sales are retracting. Same for 2016 Q3 against 2015 Q3. I don't get what the debate is. It's public data.

The debate is that these public data don't tell much, if anything at all. Slower sales than 6S is not bad, since that had record sales anyway. Second, Xmas are not yet here. Third, there are also other news, like:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/11/28/apple-killing-it-i...

Or the news that the new MacBook Pro retina had the most orders than any MBP on its arrival.

62. zeroer ◴[] No.13069419{5}[source]
I don't have a home phone number.
replies(1): >>13073564 #
63. saghm ◴[] No.13073564{6}[source]
I think from the fact that it was in quotes, "home" just means your default number
replies(1): >>13079357 #
64. zeroer ◴[] No.13079357{7}[source]
I don't have a default number.

You can see why I might think that forcing phone number to equal identify might be a bad idea.

I understand that I'm an unusual case, but I'm sure plenty of other people go through something similar this every couple years if and when they switch phone numbers or providers or move.

replies(1): >>13081210 #
65. etatoby ◴[] No.13081210{8}[source]
I have had the same mobile number for the past 20 years, throughout dozens of different phones and operators. This is very typical where I live (Southern Europe) where, in fact, WhatsApp is very popular.

Question: how do people you haven't been in contact with manage to find you, if you change your number every 2 years?

replies(1): >>13085060 #
66. WayneBro ◴[] No.13081266{4}[source]
> I thought most phones eventually moved to a software back button.

The Android OS implements the software back button, not the apps...and it's always at the bottom of the screen where I can easily reach it. iOS does not implement any such back button - each app has to implement its own and the convention on iOS is to place that back button all the way in the upper left corner of the screen which is very inconvenient to reach for.

> I have no idea what you're talking about. (re: organizing icons)

So, let's imagine that you have 3 app icons on one of your home screens in iOS...

Can you put one of them in the lower right corner? Nope.

Can you put one of them all the way on the right side while the other 2 stay on the left? Nope.

Can you do anything to position them absolutely? No you cannot.

You must resort to jailbreaking or other hackery (like blank icons) to make this work.

67. WayneBro ◴[] No.13081298{4}[source]
This is incorrect. There is no feature of iOS that behaves even remotely like the universal Android back button.
68. zeroer ◴[] No.13085060{9}[source]
In the past three years, I haven't spent more than 60 cumulative days in a single country. Keeping a single phone number is a nonstarter for me.

People contact me via email. Apple's iMessage is the only chat client I've been able to use effectively, because they tie identity to email, not phone number.

69. econnors ◴[] No.13124429{3}[source]
Sorry for late reply, just saw this. Nobody in my circles uses WhatsApp, so nobody uses WhatsApp.